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 Onlive discussion. 
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Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:11 pm
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Post Re: Onlive discussion.
The big thing here is that they've developed a compression algorithm that can
compress and transmit real time HD video over a distance of about 1000 miles
on normal commercial internet connections.

That took 7 years to develop. Now, refreshing old technologies or not, this is quite an achievement.

Handy-dandy remote desktopping can't do THIS.
I hope they release a client and server thing so we can do a sort of remote desktop with this and make CC psuedo-online.


Last edited by zalo on Sat Apr 04, 2009 2:04 am, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Apr 04, 2009 2:03 am
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Post Re: Onlive discussion.
ProjektTHOR wrote:
3POK_PHALE wrote:
off topic: are you a fudge genius?


No, he's not. He is actually just someone pretending that they are an electrical engineer. First and foremost, latency is not a pure function of distance. It is a derived benchmark involving the time when an action began, and when it concludes. That time is a function of throughput, distance, computational capacity, and node traffic.

You certainly can decrease latency through increased compression. Compression does not increase your bandwidth. Your bandwidth is a static metric dictated by the throughput of your line (Dialup is slower than ISDN is slower than Cable is slower than T1/3).

Unfortunately, the genius you so love has got it completely backwards. They are not increasing bandwidth, they are decreasing packet size and traffic (through compression).

Latency if < 1ms is achievable, if you are within a certain distance. That distance can be found here. As long as you are within approximately 299,000 meters, you can achieve a 1 ms latency (299,000 meters being the distance one photo travels in a milisecond). Does that make sense to everyone?

Now, to be honest, that is completely outside the realm of logic, and no businessman or technologist would make that claim short of having an ansible--but that isn't the point.

tl;dr: mail234x^69 doesnt really know what he is talking about, he just wants you to think he is smart.


The only way that processor power generates a latency issue is if there are so many people connected that there are no available ports, and/or no available memory, therefor, if your experiencing server-sided latency issues, you will most likely disconnect from the game, and your not the only one. It is for this reason I want to get 100,000 people to play crysis all at once on this.

That said, Latency is mostly dictated by A) Distance B) Connection type IE phone jack vs say, fiber optic, and C) hardware on the modem : Are multiple users on your home network, and is anything else using bandwidth. Therefor distance will still play a major roll and odds are you'll never get less than 100/ms of latency, and thats mostly from distance. your logic may stand, but so does his. you both say the other is wrong but your actually both half right. you can't reduce a connection to 1/ms without being in the same location. over all thin consoles are a terrible idea, especially since it means you don't actually own a hard copy of the game, AND you can't run the games if you lose service such as from lack of internet, or the servers go down. and of course we all no servers never go down for anything like a patch or someone hacking it, or it crashing due to a flood of users.


Sat Apr 04, 2009 2:04 am
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Post Re: Onlive discussion.
Did you even read what I said?

You can achieve < 1 ms latency without the machine being next to you.

And for starters, where the hell did this < 1 ms issue even come up. I find it highly unlikely that OnLive's sales people would allow them to make that claim, so the argument is moot.

The main part of my argument is that mail2345 claimed "Compression boosts bandwidth. Not latency."

That is ♥♥♥♥ bollocks. Compression does not change the amount of bandwidth. It lowers latency. This isn't about the speed of light, or how close a data center must be. My argument is that mail2345 doesn't know what he's talking about because of that sentence.

And that sentence proves mail2345 is an idiot, and that you are an idiot for not understanding my point.

Why I bother to try to explain to you kids this stuff is beyond me.


Sat Apr 04, 2009 2:09 am
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Post Re: Onlive discussion.
Quote:
"The round trip latency from pushing a button on a controller and it going up to the server and back down, and you seeing something change on screen should be less than 80 milliseconds.

"We usually see something between 35 and 40 milliseconds."


They claim they get around that performance.


Sat Apr 04, 2009 2:30 am
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Post Re: Onlive discussion.
I don't see how that is unreasonable, provided they have a network of data centers to support this and the compression to make it deployable.


Sat Apr 04, 2009 2:31 am
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Post Re: Onlive discussion.
I was looking at latency at the point of view of the packets, not the entire data transmission.
By bandwidth I meant how much data is effectively getting though. You may have a fast connection, but if it's very electronically noisy, all the needed redundancy will reduce you effective bandwidth.

I'm talking about packet-wise latency and effective bandwidth.

Compressing your packets does not make them go faster, and thus the same latency.
It does allow fitting more stuff, and thus more bandwidth.

And your calculations are incorrect, as the speed of light in a fiber optic cable is 66% less than a vacuum.

Then there is incredibly dumb ISP routing in the way.

Or, in analogy world:

Trucks that have their load better compacted and stored and organized(boxes stacked and stuff) do not go faster than trucks that have a completely inefficient use of space inside.

Anyway, I'm not saying that this will fail everywhere, thanks to the brain masking out latency if it's low enough, I'm just saying it will fail for people who have retarded ISPs or don't live close enough to the server.
Infact, assuming you are near a server, this may be good for you.


Sat Apr 04, 2009 2:41 am
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Post Re: Onlive discussion.
Too bad your definition of bandwidth is incorrect. As I said, the word you are looking for is "throughput."

They are distinctly different definitions that I suggest you google/wiki/dictionary.

And what is this nonsense about electrical noise? The average, run-of-the-mill CAT5/6 cable the Intertubes are made up of are generally speaking EMI-safe. You only come to some issues (some very low-interference issues) at the demarc. The amount of packets lost due to electrical noise on a wired connection in a modern Internetwork is essentially zero.

Also, I corrected your paragraph for you, since you still seem to know nothing about the topic at hand:

Quote:
Compression decreases the size of data packets sent, therefore decreasing the amount of messages that must be transfered, therefore decreasing latency. Compression does not make the packets go faster, it makes the transmission as a whole go faster.

It allows for increased throughput by decreasing the number of packets transmitted (as such, reducing message transmit time, and the possibility of transmission errors through a decreased population space.

Additionally, your calculations are partially incorrect, because you are not accomodating for the refractive index of transmission medium. The higher the refractive index, the slower light travels in this medium. Your statement of 299,000 m/ms is true in a medium with a refractive index of 1. The quality of lines does vary, but it does not vary up to 66%.


Also, please stop with the truck metaphor. It is completely wrong, and looking at the problem from the incorrect point of view. A truck that has dirt packed at a density of 2 does not travel faster than a truck packed with dirt at a density of one.

What it does do is get more dirt per square unit moved. And that is the point of OnLive's compression. It moves more data in smaller segments.

If you knew anything about networking, you'd know that increasing the amount of data in a packet is equivalent to increasing its throughput.


Sat Apr 04, 2009 2:52 am
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Post Re: Onlive discussion.
Even though compression is boosting throughput, eg you get more pixels coming though, it still will take time for the commands to get though and the video to get back, even if they managed to fit 720p in 1MB of space via compression.

I'm just pointing out that this will not work for every one.

If they put servers up on the Mainland US, things will work out for every one with decent ISP and not too far away.

Do some googling, apparently their server banks are on both coasts and one under construction in the Midwest.

This setup prevents the following geographical locations from using OnLive:
Everyone not on North America.


Sat Apr 04, 2009 4:02 am
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Post Re: Onlive discussion.
mail2345 wrote:
Everyone not on North America.

It's only there because they still are doing beta tests.
When the testamonials from chosen beta testers come supporting this technology, then they'll start building all across the world.

And of course, they do have support from Electronic Arts, Take-Two, Ubisoft, Epic Games, Atari, Codemasters, THQ, Warner Bros., 2D Boy and Eidos Interactive (copypasted from wikipedia).

They also claimed that those mentioned companies had to try out the technology before they supported it.


Sat Apr 04, 2009 4:11 am
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Post Re: Onlive discussion.
Servers are not cheap.

A cluster of servers powerful enough to handle thousand's of gamers is definitely not cheap.

There will be a few place always out of cost reach, probably including Africa, South America, the majority of islands, ect.


Sat Apr 04, 2009 4:19 am
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Post Re: Onlive discussion.
mail2345 wrote:
Even though compression is boosting throughput, eg you get more pixels coming though, it still will take time for the commands to get though and the video to get back, even if they managed to fit 720p in 1MB of space via compression.
Yes, because binary data, as opposed to image files, really take up a lot of space/data transfer.


Sat Apr 04, 2009 4:20 am
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Post Re: Onlive discussion.
Actually, they'd probably make a shitton of money in South America. There are quite a lot of gamers with shitty PCs that can only play CS:S/1.6


Sat Apr 04, 2009 4:32 am
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Post Re: Onlive discussion.
Wow Crysis at 720p. Lame. Save your money, and build your own computer.

Also, complete bull♥♥♥♥ that it will stream as well as they show. Show me a 720p video, and I'll show you a loading bar.


Sat Apr 04, 2009 6:44 am
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Post Re: Onlive discussion.
Yeah they're totally lying and expect to make money off of an FPS with a loading bar. TOTALLY.


Sat Apr 04, 2009 6:49 am
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Post Re: Onlive discussion.
Onlive could be the solution to having world wide multiplayer for Cortex Command. :grin:


Wed Apr 08, 2009 2:47 pm
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