Yeah she did get a lot of hate from a lot of horrible people, but she really isn't the best representation of feminism in video games.
War on attractiveness. That's got a post-ironic flavor I can dig.

I'm all for sex-positive feminism but the fact that sex can be empowering doesn't mean it always is. Particularly with the limited characterization of most video games the sexualization of female characters too easily becomes an overwhelming part of their identity. I recently wrote a paper where I researched a number of studies that showed how damaging the representation of women can be on our perception of the whole gender. For example this study here (one of the few that's available for free) looked at Tomb Raider (2006) and compared conditions where they had participants play a scantily clad Lara, a more covered Lara, or no game condition at all. They found that participants who had played as the sexualized Lara reported significantly less positive views of womens' physical and cognitive abilities after only 20 minutes of play. There are clearly some limitations to this study but the evidence is supported by other research that has found similar results.


This is something I misunderstood for a long time as well, but applying our ideas of female sexualization to males doesn't work. Solid Snake's tight wriggly ass is an interesting point but in general qualities that are viewed as objectification of males such as shirtless exposed abs or loin cloths isn't an expression of objectification but instead a male power fantasy. The origin of my avatar might help explain. Do you really think game developers anywhere go around saying "yeah yeah lets make Snake wear this because that's what girls really like"? No, they're clearly making games for men.

OK so just a disclaimer I haven't played Bayonetta beyond the demo (though I would like to one day) but I find it really hard to believe you would argue that she is good for feminism. From the ground up she's clearly been built for the male gaze... Without even speaking about her costume many of her attacks cause her clothes to disappear and there are frequent instances in the game where she spreads her legs for no other reason than titillation for men.

That seems like a really interesting study. Though it's more about the receiving ends in a lot of cases. If people weren't ignorant of female empowerment, the current state of video games, rampant commercialism, and vicious targeted marketing, then things would be different. I do see what you mean, and to me personally, sexuality is a really empowering thing. Others don't see it the same way. Like you said, it's a market pitch. Well sexuality doesn't have to be objectification, which is the point of the empowerment. Male power fantasy is another kind of blurry thing. Sometimes it can be really erotic instead of just "whoa manly". Interesting thing, I hear a lot of the designs for Assassins Creed were made taking the female dream guy aspect into account (coincidentally, there is so much Assassins Creed smut online it's not even funny). And lets also recall Jennifer Hepler, and the character/romance development of DA2, ME2, and ME3. A lot of this was directly targeted towards the homosexual and female demographic (as made very apparent by publicity stunts). There should just be a fringe campaign preaching the difference between objectification and empowerment, then the whole gender dispute will fade away with it. Though fringe campaigns are just that -- no regular gamer is going to turn their head unless it gets horribly viral to the point of it losing its original message (like Feminism in video games).

Bayonetta is a very very sexual game, but I still see it as an empowering game. Though it's subjective, open to interpretation for everyone. I just feel that the strong elements of her as a protagonist, and the overall representation of the enemies and plot in the game do the sexual overtone justice, and support empowerment through sexuality. She is no damsel, and she isn't in distress; a headstrong, confident hero who expresses herself through genderswapped Devil May Cry tricky mode moves.

tldr Excuse me if I ramble a bit too much, or try to sound like I'm being contrary. My main endeavor is to get people to see sexuality as an empowering thing, and to be aware of all misrepresentation, inequality, and exploitation of gender in video games, the female gender being way more exploited than male.
#notmad #swag #swaggie #irrelevanthashtagging #swag #feminism

#yolo

#yolalwliysya

is it one of those serious discussion periods in The Lounge again
I'd join in, but I'm too lazy to read all these long posts

i demand the ability to post .swfs in posts.

You know that you can mount viruses and code desktop crashing applications in flash?
Amazing world we live in.

I was overdoing it with the hashtags because I spent the night reading http://www.hipsterrunoff.com , a pretty funny fake alternative news blog.

I'd prefer feminism via destruction of male obligation, it's unbalanced.

If you mean feminism without men obliging to help then that's really really stupid.
Two whole really's.

As much as you can uplift, and protect women, you are going to have to find another demographic to fill in said gap.
I think it stands to reason that equality means equal obligations, and so on.

Anyways, realize that I didn't say that men should stop being involved egalitarian issues.



I don't like giving further to people in places that they already have a quantifiable advantage in.

Besides quite frankly, I don't really like anyone being shut down, or otherwise forced into things they don't want to be in; I've had enough of that in my earlier years.
Even though it doesn't make for a good platform to start on, but I don't think you'll get anywhere by causing battle over it with me especially.

Your "gap" implies that for the men who become interested in equality, they'd be abandoning their own male empowerment. This is flawed logic, unless of course all the newly recruited male feminists are self-loathers.

The equality we're looking for isn't 50-50 either. Demographically, there is no such thing as 50-50, as pretty much everyone who can count is aware. The discussion of college admissions is also completely irrelevant to the topic of gaming, but since you brought it up, going to college is a privilege for both genders, yet there will always be people of both genders who will not go to college. It also helps to learn more about the demographic of these people who don't want to go to college. I've met a lot of these people. Here in the Southwest, they're everywhere. A lot of it has to do with providing for their family, which they can't do during four year gaps; tradition of ignorance in their family is also another big reason why many don't ever go to college. There are more angles to the college ratio than just "women are overrepresented". Even if he's right about the (uncited) pontification concerning distribution of wealth in America, that still doesn't mean people are fighting to balance it out, or that it suddenly invalidates the state of women in gaming. He's also directly contradicting himself when he says you're treating women like damsels in distress for wanting equality, and suddenly that's putting them up on a pedestal too. No, when people for equality, it's not a bunch of chivalrous smegma-skins who plan on "getting the girl"; it's both men AND women asking for proper representation in games (NOT proper representation in sales (like the quotee was so obsessed with)).

to summarize the ignorant insinuations within the spoiler:
"So when you're fighting for proper representation in gaming, suddenly you're trying to get women even more wealthy, healthy, and educated than you"

Don't like giving further to people in power? Then learn to differentiate the things they have advantages and disadvantages in first.
What's this random mumbling of people being shut down? Are you saying I'm trying to shut your misogynist ways down? No, we all have freedom of speech. I can't and won't stop you from being trash. I also didn't "cause" a battle, and I don't really "plan" on getting anywhere by calling you out. All I'm really doing is pointing out the outrageous flaws in your plagiarized defense

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Are you implying that we believe that only we (as men) can work against sexism? Are you saying that we feel that only men are obliged to do anything? In fact I don't believe Sothe or I ever said that men are obligated to work against sexism at all (though I do believe we are).

Is this Oz? Because I see a strawman. Being a feminist doesn't mean you don't feel that men have problems too. Just because you donate money to starving kids in Africa doesn't mean you don't believe that children are starving elsewhere.

Because media such as movies and video games have a major effect on the way we learn and understand the world. Are you familiar with social learning theory? Even if you're not it's pretty obvious how much we we internalize from media, especially as children.

When you have men holding the vast majority of leading roles with women relegated to supporting roles it teaches people that men are the ones with agency, who are able to affect things and change their lives through their own will whereas the role of women is to react to the actions of men.

This is an interesting factoid and I would like to learn more but I cannot find the original source. I am very interested to know how they operationalized "control". Is it that women control more wealth because they earn more of it or is it because they are the ones spending it? I also wonder how this fact can be true when feminization of poverty is a thing.

Most likely yes.

Again I am unclear what you mean. Has anyone in this thread said "Foa you need to do this"?

You.
Just now.

My fingers hurt from assembling a gundam.
It was very therapeutic.