just to make it clear what I'm replying to.



That is EXACTLY what SHARPNESS does. It says as much in the comments in base.rte

What everyone ELSE is complaining about, is that the physics engine is unrealistic.

Guess what 1 KG of matter at 100 velocity having 150 velocity of force. you can do this in CC, it is not realistic physics, they want it gone, which makes lasers, impossible.

What you want to get, you already have
what you have, they want to take.

This circular argument is pissing me off.

If you want to have realistic physics, do a realistic physics conversion that includes a new materials.ini and uses lua to enforce it. this way, the people who want a fun game thats balanced and realistic within its own madness may, but if they want reality, they can use your mod, or go the ♥♥♥♥ outside. don't ♥♥♥♥ with EVERYONE because the way the physics isn't quite real life rubs you the wrong way.

screw this, I'm working on my happy radiation ball guns for the tau.

You clearly do not know what you are talking about. Where has ANYONE said that the physics will be limited from what they currently are? Where has it been said that crazy weapons will somehow be removed with Lua?

The entire point of this discussion is that a standard should be set for bullet masses and penetration, so that life is made easier for developers and modders. A STANDARD. As in, the vanilla content should make sense according to the claimed physics properties of the engine, so that other content produced might adhere to that standard and also make sense within the engine.

A standard is not some arbitrary code that's getting added in to force you to adhere to the Ministry of Love's regulations and beat your mod up with a stick if you do something wrong. On top of that, how the hell would that even be implemented?

I think that it is clear that a standard is needed, as defined by some GAMEPLAY (WHOAH DUDE) problems at the moment:

-Acid shells, as there was no standard for shell weights/sharpnesses
-Heavy digger becoming progressively more powerful with each build for some reason (now cuts through reinforced metal like swiss cheese)
-Many major mod packs are overpowered, and barely mesh with vanilla content, since there is no STANDARD for them to set their firepower/strength/whatever variables to. They fail to meet the non-existant standard set by the vanilla content, and thus feel "wrong" in conjunction with that content.

I think that perhaps part of the problem is that there is no real "design document" particularly visible for CC; How is anyone supposed to know what direction things are heading in, how much this should weigh, what that should do? I dunno, even a table of bullet weights and sharpnesses in comparison to real counterparts, and a guide for the processes used in the vanilla content, would be useful.

The (ENGINE) physics do, indeed, change; this is important for CC, as improvements are wholly necessary and beneficial. Perhaps Data, Prom, or another member of the "brass" laying down standards for the content would allow the engine physics to not need to adjust for strange inconsistencies between apparently similar objects.

AND AT THE SAME TIME, the engine STILL supports crazy stuff, so the vanilla content as well as mods can still do cool things. The problem is not that photons are being simulated inaccurately (they fall wholly outside the scope of CC's engine, and therefore must be bodged a bit); the problem is that things as simple as BULLETS and SHELLS, which the engine should have standards for, are all over the place.

Edit: Haha, woo, that inflated a bit while I was typing it. Oh well, perhaps it may prove to be informative.

With B23, it's easier to dig with bullet casings than with actual bullets.

No, no, and no.
Sharpness does not affect the kinetic force put on what it hits. It affects the penetration capability.

I was justifying high mass bullets in regard to realism, because a ridiculously high-mass for a bullet at a tenth of the regular velocity yields kinetic force similar to a real bullet. Also in regard to gameplay, because knockback is fun.


You explained the discussion well Mooseral, but I disagree with the extent people seemingly want thing standardized.
I don't think there needs to be a standard strictly adhered by vanilla content for how it go about making something do something, I think vanilla content would be best if it had variation that broke it's own standard regularly, but not by means of an unbalance, just a different way of going about things.
For example, massive bullets with low sharpness, sharpness based bullets with low mass, ballistically vulnerable actors, impulsively vulnerable actors, actors with significantly weak/strong points, actors with mild/no particularly weak/strong points.
These can all be balanced, while at the same time unique and fun.



There's no point further pointing out acid casings, it's a complete waste of time, every dev knows about it by now and I'm certain it's already fixed for the next build. Anyone else that sees you mention it will only be reading what they already have known, or will have just then noticed it and been annoyed by it.
Although it is ironic how much of an over correction it was from the previous problem with casings and shells and such.

Exactly. It'll be fixed eventually, but all the same, it would be very useful to have a standard to rely on for that kind of thing. Just a basis for comparison, which states that bullets are better at going through concrete than ejected shells are. It'd certainly be an improvement over trial and error, I think.

Edit: Woop, aimed at Combine.

And now, for Azukki's post:

I think the same thing is in order. Complete standardization is no fun for gameplay.

A basis for generic machine guns having X stats, generic assault rifles having Y stats, and generic pistols having Z stats would be good. Making EVERY gun generic weapon X, Y or Z is not so good.

For instance, something like the Peacemaker. It's amusing to vary the physics to an unrealistic extreme in such cases; firing ridiculously heavy bullets can be fun.

HOWEVER, firing a gatling gun only to have it drill a hole through the wall behind you is NOT fun; therefore, we need a better standard/basis for comparison between different parts of the content.

So yeah, basically I agree with you.

I want this to calm down please, it started off as a nice discussion, now it's verging on argumentative and lock-worthy.

I'd be happy to keep it calmer; I just think Mile's posts interrupted things a bit. I dunno, it seemed like he was not so much participating in debate as randomly submitting unfounded claims? Assuming he also keeps it civil, I see no reason for any form of escalation.

I certainly don't plan on any more hueg rants, at least.

goddamnit guys, if your capslock key is stuck on, try pulling your keyboard out of the computer, or bashing it against your head. anything to avoid childish ALLCAPS rants.

in regards to the light coalition weighing 300 kilos, hes got quite a bit of armour on and is 6 foot tall. maybe a little too heavy, but not that extreme.
everything should just be worked through and balanced to use real masses. it shouldnt be hard for a vanilla content developer to go through a small horde of .ini files and alter mass and sharpness on some MOPixels. and especially to reduce terrain rape.
also, the RPC is fine, but it should be about four million times more polished.

@Geti
I'm 6 foot tall and that's five times as heavy as I am. That's pretty absurd. (both his heavy weight [considering he's the light soldier] and my light weight [considering my diet])

It's ironic that you're annoyed by someone else's capitalization.

@Seraph
I've only noticed Miles expressing any aggression. I think argumentativeness without significant aggression should be allowed. It's the clashing of two opinions, and that's what most discussions are at their core. When that goes reasonably, the results are generally productive. I think with this kind of thing you need to stay confident it will go well, instead of forcefully ending it without knowing for certain that it will go bad. This might not be the place for it, but I've been wanting to express this opinion that differs from the apparent standard DRL administration procedure for some time. Being overly-precautionary can mess up things that could have gone well unnecessarily.


Yeah, I think Midas should have it's own generic 'faction', to set the standard. You know, one of everything normal, made in a normal way.

Well if we change the effectiveness of a bullet, we must also change the effectiveness of the bullet proof vest, so we don't make it really hard to kill each other. so making enemies easier to kill while at the same time make the bullets do less damage but more realistic physics maybe we could even it out. i think making cc more realistic takes effort in all aspects of the game, otherwise we endup with a huge imbalance.

and i think weight is a real issue, i have noticed that sometimes drop ships or even soldiers just sink int the dirt and fall off the edge of the map. they can't seriously be that heavy. it kinda messes up gameplay, and can be relaly frustrating. rather than change the firmness of the ground, yeah, i agree, something a little less heavy might do.

i also notice that at a certain range, my bullets bounce off walls and enemies like water, i think that has to do with the speed of the bullet, if anything can be done with that it probably should, i'm no coder, but i'm beginning to look into modding, so i'm sorry if i talk like a noob because i am one.

Okay I've calmed down, and I have ONE thing to say.

People have been paying attention to the little details of what I'm saying and missing the main point.

What we have doesn't need replaced, only added to. we do not need a universal standard, we need the mass/velocity/sharpness/optional new variables if added to stop changing in any given vanilla object per build. IE one build the AK47 has X mass Y velocity, but then in another its X+2 y-9 or some crap, that changes every build, the build by build changing, makes it impossible to make consistent mods. don't remove functionality, only add optional functionality.

Thats ALL I was trying to say. I am sorry for any confusion.

Yes, improvement and balance would take plenty of effort. But it still should be done; a quality end product is the goal.


I think you're describing a ricochet. When bullets don't hit hard enough or hit at too much of an angle or whatever, they don't penetrate and instead they bounce off and whatever.


If it ain't broke don't fix it?
I think improvements should be sought out with priority higher than build content consistency. Although this type of consistency is convenient, sticking to it means avoiding avoiding progression.

yes i agree completely. i wasn't trying to say it would take too much work, but more just that we can't overlook everything else.

and thanks, yeah richocet was the word i was looking for.

Yeah actually, I don't mind the idea of a "Midas" faction. It'd be particularly appropriate too, the whole gold standard thing.

If we were to have a standardized faction, which was used for testing/balance/code reference for other factions, it might be far easier to develop content. Essentially, a faction which fully makes "realistic" sense in the engine, so that as sillier, more colorful factions are made, they can still have an anchorage in the basis of the game. Indeed, they could be compared to this other faction for balance and reference.

I think that since ALL of the content is fluid right now, it is rather hard for anyone to release fully sense-making content, as again, there are so many standards. It would also help for more complicated Lua physics code, as Darlos originally pointed out.

I think that rather than resulting in less original content, it might actually be beneficial to the game's diversity. For instance, heavy "slugger" guns such as the 110-gram assault rifle might play a different role (perhaps not as the most basic assault rifle), and be balanced somewhat differently.

I dunno, any thoughts as far as a Midas faction goes? I guess it could even be a community-made thing to some extent, a generalized mod based off of the templates. Always nice to have vanilla content, but there is still a lot of work ahead for the current content makers, whichever way they go. Then again, the whole saving balancing work thing, or not.

Blargh, it's hard to tell how long these things are on a widescreen. Hopefully this post is not too bad. Also, it's getting late. Time to pack it in for the night, methinks.

If there were a definitive standard faction I would certainly switch the templates over to use it. Or maybe the templates could be taken into official hands? Or the faction could be unofficial and taken into my hands?

I've got more supporting ideas for this. Basically their visual theme would be blockiness and dull gray, [think riot shield] with some painted gold features.
Their .inis could be stuffed full of comments, explaining .ini modding, giving them even more referential use.

Stuff that could be included:

-Organic Ballistics Dummy, a clone soldier without any equipment or means of enhancement. Realistic human vulnerability. [Mostly?] Naked, deathly gray skin. Dumb expression, bald.
-Light, Heavy, and Super Soldiers, soldiers of various strengths, with increasing armor. Also with the deathly gray skin.
-Droid, Combat Robot, two humanoid robots, one dummyish, the other made tough with Military Stuff and Metal armor.
-Armored Crab Turret, basically a dreadnought, maybe with fewer but stronger attachments.
-Dropship, Rocket, Drop Pod, made without an overwhelming gib count.
-No brain, the presumably-human brain in a jar is generic enough

-Ballistics gel block, a bunker module block of ballistics gel for terrain penetration testing/demonstration.
-Blocks of various other materials that are generally used in Mass Objects rather than terrain.
-Flesh Block, actor [plain actor, like a brain] that is a horrific bioengineered living block of flesh, for Mass Object penetration testing/demonstration.

-Light Dual Wield Pistols, Heavy Pistols, SMG, Carbine, Assault Rifle, Battle Rifle, Sniper Rifle, Pump Shotgun
Bullets would have AirResistance and GlobalAccScalar on them to encourage these variables' use. The lead shooters would all have proportionally realistic attributes. The sniper rifle would demonstrate the emitter projectile method. The shotgun would use AirResistance significantly to limit range. Also with saying that duals should be in this I'm saying that they should be officially incorporated.

-Grenade Launcher, LAW, Infinite Grenade
The generic explosives would be a mixture of frag and concussion in effect, with some flamey effects just for show. The LAW would have a shaped charge, while the other two wouldn't even have velocity inheritance. The law would demonstrate propelled projectiles. The infinite grenade would just be an infinite hand grenade, like numgun's snake mod's grenades.

-Digger, Shield, Frag grenade, Concussive grenade, Incendiary grenade, Heavy grenade, Placement grenade, Sprayer
The grenades would show how different explosions can be, the placement grenade would basically be timed C4.



Despite me generally being a stickler to uniquity, I kinda want to make this happen, now that I'm put the thought into it.