Well, your players are obviously doing ♥♥♥♥ just to spite you. Solution? Make their inaction allow things to directly affect them in a negative way. Example: Port town is having trouble with pirates. If they don't try to look into this and go drink or do something else stupid do not worry. When they are near the docks, guardhouse, or someone who is worried about the town's livelihood, have that NPC come up to the PCs and say something along the lines of "Hey there blah blah blah I am Fistcrush Von Bowel explode blah blah blah. Hey, I couldn't help but notice you look strong/like adventurers/ men in need of work. You should sign up as a mercenary and help the navy/town/ Admiral Blahblah attack the pirate menace. Perhaps with you, they could take out the infamous pirate captain Sharkwall Volcanoriddles." Now then, the players can either be like Awesome Lets Save The Day, or they will say no like you keep saying they do. If they do the latter then this has been two strikes. At night or whenever have the pirates attack the town. Not just attack, but tear through it, really ♥♥♥♥ it up. I.e. burst into their inn rooms at night and attack them. If they die or not, the lesson should be learned. If they don't learn, I don't really understand why you play with them and you should just end the session right there with the old tried but true "ROCKS FALL. EVERYONE DIES!"

well i would like to move the topic on to something i want to know about for future DMing. magical weapons.(can be awkward[really awkward]) we all want to make something just awesome and pulled out of our ass(less intelligent way of saying off the top of your head) but this can ruin a game. but we cant because if we make something awesome and powerful for one person, everyone else wants one. now what do you do in this situation? you can either give them all something awesome and then have the game ruined by them being able to solve any problem(as was my case on the first campaign i did). or would you just take away said awesome object and make them all angry at you. another choice that pops into your head would be. why not just not have anything to do with magical weapons and leave it all alone? well unfortunately this can also make the game far less fun than it can be.

so then readers and writers of this thread. how would or do you go about using magical items? are there other options(i know there are!)? and what are some of your out of your ass magical items that you use?

I kill my players. End of story.
Not really, but this is how I'm handling it-
The rogue in the party has a magical prosthetic that becomes more powerful as he does. Mainly in methods of control; finer implements (needles for poison, lockpicks), different weapon types (axe blades, whatever).
The swordmage is easy; his bond with his blade increases.
The ranger I can figure out over time.
Considering he uses like, 20 arrows an encounter, I can't go wrong with quivers or arrows.
Also-
Me: Ok, make an acrobatics check.
ADHD: *rolls no dice* 10.
Me: .... a red dragon EATS you. Ok, make the check, seriously.
ADHD: *same as before* 10.
Me: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU---

The way I balance magic items is based off of super hero logic. this is my OVERPOWER logic.

Start the players with NO magic, and at some point, when they get treasure, Assume it includes something magic. after a few encounters, Make EVERY encounter, Both Possess, AND USE, magic, and magic items, so that Always having magic, Becomes the standard, this way, If they can do it, so can everyone else. This keeps the game from breaking.


Although yes, By lv 20, you'd have all the equipment as +5 and higher, with several artifacts, which would make them more powerfull than some level 30's which Is why I assume Items change a characters ECL. So, Here's the formula I use, and it works fairly well.

For every magic item the players get, Treat them as there level + 3/4 the items level totals.

So a +3 sword and a +1 ring, is +4, so treat them as character level +4, and base all the encounters as such, and when factoring in adding items to the enemys, do the same math. so if they encounter a monster or NPC of there level, with identically leveled equipment, it will be a fair fight.


Also ALWAYS assume that the main villian(s) have super awesome gear, every artifact you can think of, and pretend that there ALWAYS using them.


One thing this does though, is by lv 9, if you give them the wrong items, and the players are really clever, they can take on some of the lower epic encounters, (21-25)

so, as for magic, Here's a list of items that you should never give.


Never give a player a rod of wonder, Any of them, for ANY reason. This is one of the most abusable magics.
If ONE of the players is a bit to smart, NEVER give them ANY acidic weapon. They will try to figure out what acid it is based on 3 things it melts, and find the most abusable use of it.

Never give a player a deck of many things. more often then not, they use it as often as possible to see what all they can cause to happen.

Never give players an item that in some way grants any of the following.
Clairvoience, clairaudience, Suggest, Sleep, Hold person, Hold creature, Control water, Air-walk, Hold Door, Create water, purify water, shatter.

the first 6 I just listed are obvious, as those are some of the most powerfull spells if used properly, but the rest are abusable, or just worded badly.

Control water : Used to control tides for boats, The problem, it just says 'body of water'. My players insisted that the blood in someone's body is water, which technically it is, and that they could control the water (blood) to force it all into the targets brain, instantly killing them. After 4 hours of arguing that it doesn't say target creature means exactly that, you can't target that. It was realized it doesn't work, BECAUSE, It says you can only move the water levels UP or DOWN, by any hight.

They raised the hight of the targets blood to +5000 feet above sea-level, and ended the spell. NEVER give them the ability to use this if they can't already cast it.

Air-walk. The caster chooses a target, and allows them to fly. The caster controls the flight.
They used it to pick targets up and hold them in the air, becoming an extra hold-person. After 20 minutes re-reading the spell, and looking for some wording that would say otherwise, I couldn't find one. its just a poorly written spell.

Hold door: Targets a door being closed, and holds it open. The players called the left and right ventricles of the heart 'doors' and tried to hold them. Upon reading the spell, it says it only works on wood, metal, and stone doors. which yes, means you can't use it on a glass door, or magic door. but it was annoying.

Create water. Target container, create X volume water. They targeted lungs, I said it needs room to expand, they said fine, stomach, this creates 8 galons of water at this level, Hydroshock. I read the spell, Non-living, non-creature, container. again, just annoying. Now if they got the target to swallow a baloon, or a small vial...

Purify water, takes any water and removes impurities. Target BLOOD, remove impurities, IE everything that isn't water. the body suffocates. I don't remember if this works, but some players will try it.

Shatter: Shatters an object, Requires a solid object or crystaline creature. The only creatures targetable must be crystal, however any non-magical object works. Target SKULL. Note, this doesn't just break it into pieces, it violently shatters them at jagged angles, with explosive force. the skull would go INTO the brain, and out of the scalp.


The reason I mention these spells most of all, is as follows.

When you give a player an item with a spell on it, they think, hey thats usefull. then they think 'maybe the DM is telling us to do something' followed by 'maybe this has some other hidden use...' followed by franticly reading the spell text.



But if the players DO somehow do something un-expected, just make there opponets do the same, or simillar, and that when they stop, you stop. This means the game will be as fair as they allow. One exception. a combination of 2 spells. any spell that is save Vs Death, followed by dissintegrate. Never do this to a player, even if they did it to the main villian at some random point, and you rolled bad for his save.





I know, for some of you this seems obvious. but the main thing I was getting at is, If you give the players magic, Give there enemies JUST AS MUCH magic, and/or total up the levels of stuff, and put them against higher encounters.


Also NEVER use magic in a modern setting for ANY reason. Especially in combination with grenades, and totaling AoE damage to larger than medium size creatures (a large creature occupies 4, 5 foot spaces, and would thus take 4 spaces worth of damage. Bad in fantasy, Good for large scale modern settings, with tanks)

Why? I gave my modern players spells, and magic items. One day, 2 of our players where missing so I said "hey, rather than make them miss out lets say I temporarily summon your characters to another plane, and pit you against a theoretically impossible chalenge and see how long you survive. No penalty of death." they said sure, Here's the fight that happened.

3 players, with a laser rifle, (6th level sorcerer), One with a mini-gun, and 1 cleric, with a box of grenades, and a 50-cal sniper rifle.

Faced against. Azathoth, as of call of cthulu, D20.72D8+2091 Health, DR 55/+4 and divine fast healing 200, fire resistance 40, sonic immunity. AC63 (+1 dex, -8 size, +40 natural, +20 divine) CR 50.

I dropped the fast healing, dropped +20 divine AC (down to AC43) and reduced the DR from 55/+4 to 20/+1

They had azathoth down to 1, before the party wiped, all because of AoE. Fireball autofire grenades.







The long and short of it is, If you give the players something, make sure what there up against has something of equal power.

Also if you want to pull something out of your ass, Just re-create magic items from other things. My favorite to do this with, is disney movies like aladdin.

Jaffar's staff. +4 rod, looks like a cobra, with ruby eyes, its made of copper, bronze, or gold. It grants charm person, hold person, sleep, suggestion, Mass hold person, Mass suggest, Mass sleep. But only if the eyes of the staff line up with at least one of the targets eyes. unlimited use. Dangerous for players to have, perfect for villians, and if the players somehow get it, It's got a limitation on it that makes it almost impossible to use during combat, because of what you have to do, and the fact that that's all it does.




SORRY IF I TALKED TO MUCH AND RAMBLED ON ABOUT PERSONAL EXPERIENCE! IT FELT LIKE A GOOD IDEA AT THE TIME!

I like what I see and wish to partake in this 'Doorknobs and Demons' phenomenon.

Would someone kindly inform me as to how I get involved in these wonderful games you've got going on?

I've never played real D&D except for my version which I call 'Tyrant's D&D,' where the DM does whatever he wants and the players get no dicerolls. Not exactly the same thing.

However, I have at least a slight grasp of how to play, from reading about it on several occasions.

Jeez Miles, does DM mean Door Mat to you? If a player tries to pull ♥♥♥♥ like control water or create water on a target *cough*ComradePyro*cough* what you do is say, ready? You say, "No." Thats all you have to say. Repeatedly in a calm tone if neccessary. Counter stupid ♥♥♥♥ with negative consequences. Also, your whole thing on upgrading everyone to super awesome magic warriors of death reminds me of Munchkin, which I got today.

Languidiir: For real life D&Ding, I would first suggest getting the others from the "Tyrant's D&D" and forming your own group, shove a Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monster Manual in front of the most creative person in the group's face while telling them to DM and have fun. There are several premade adventures online and in book form that you can use for simplicity. Friends are usually the most fun choice for people to have in your group, so try them first. Failing to get anyone you know to play, go to your local game store and ask around if anyone wouldnt mind letting a new person in their group or something along those lines.

If this does not succeed, find a group online. I am hesitant to say the one in the IRC because we have not done a session for awhile and we have a ton of people already.

I meant the one going on in IRC. D:

Well then... If we do get going again looks like we'll have to split the groups up. Please PM me on the forum if you are interested in playing. Include a list of who out of the other players you'd want to stay with or not be with if you want.

Tried that, I said No, that doesn't work, and then they bitched for 10 minuts, And I said, no, it doesn't say target creature, it does not work. there response is 'then we don't play'

and if every time I tell them they can't make up the rules as they go, they quit, its not exactly fun, and unfortunately, save going online to play, I have access to 3-5 people as players. It sucks, and unfortunately, Some of the 'abuse of a spell' actually works, because the spells are badly written.

Alot of cantrips are like this actually, but then again, 90% of the cantrips where removed between 2nd and 3rd ed. For example, Sneeze. casting time : Instant, Level 0, durration instant, No save, target sneezes. This can be used to stop ANY spell that has a verbal or somatic component, instant spell failure, with no save.

and actually, Air-walk Does unfortunately allow that, its basically another hold person. Or lift the target creature to the maximum range of the spell up, and drop them. this also works unfortunately. I've read the spell, and while i'm all about the DM is always right, I'm also against Dm's over-riding rules in the PHB, because thats all the players really get on there side. This way, Players tend not to quit because you screw them out of something there supposed to have, like saying 'okay, this is a fantasy campaign with magic, but, your not aloud to make any sorcerers, wizards, clerics, druids, paladins, or bards... and no multi-classing.


DM does not mean door-matt, but its not fun to make the players leave either. The problem is one of my players thinks he can do nothing but drink and be comic relief, and a healing potion (cleric), 2 players have god-complexes, and one of them is a former marine, who could crush my skull by squeezing with one hand. the last player who's only ever here every 2 months at random times, knows enough about a computer, that he could make my computer, and all of its components, non-functional and irreparable, in about 10 seconds. These are not the people that I want to say NO to.

My problem is I do have bad players.


Also, not munchkin, Diablo-2...

yes when players start telling the DM what to do you say that i am the dm i control the game. give them 3 strikes then ask them to leave. let them come back next time if they havent stopped give them another 3 strikes and tell them to leave and never invite them again. however a reason many DMs dont do this is because finding people to play Dnd is hard. its not just ask someone who wont laugh in your face and they generally will want to.

back on track now. lets hear your DMing experiances and player experiances. what was fun? what wasnt fun? tell me and everyone here so they can become better players.

and the last question. does anyone else find that getting people to RP(role play) is hard?

Alright, your PCs are ♥♥♥♥♥es. Stop playing with them and go to your local gaming store. EDIT: Players in the IRC will be listed on first page via edits.

The nearest one is a 40 minute drive, or a 2 hour bus-trip, and I have no car, and not enough money for a bus-pass. I'm tempted to play online, its just a matter of getting a good schedule with people.

also wanted to bring to your attention. if you didnt already know there is a players handbook 2(3.5) out. contains some new classes and updated abilities for old ones. alot of the classes are great and can add alot to the game.(my personal favorite is dragon shaman)

Have it, And DMG 2... In fact, Heres a list of all of my books. Actually. No...
Here is a photo of all my books, with a high enough quality that you can actually read all the bindings.

Why would you buy so many when you only have one group willing to play and that group sucks.