Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:40 am Posts: 1059 Location: I chose my fate, do not pity me.
Re: FG Lounge
caekdaemon wrote:
a god like entity to stop them derailing the plot.
*coughcough*, I can see a usefulness in these, if only to keep the players in line if something gets completely out of hand. I'd say B works best for me, it's a lot easier to create an interesting and coherent story when you have the details paved out, however freedom should always be a high priority, so I usually have the basics of an event but also envision a metic ♥♥♥♥ or two of branching story paths. One thing I must say is If you are going to have NPC, make sure you know everything about them to begin with, it may sound a bit cliche, but when you know a characters personality off by heart its a lot easier and fluid to write for them.
Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:12 pm
caekdaemon
Data Realms Elite
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 3:00 pm Posts: 4144 Location: Hell.
Re: FG Lounge
Which is one of the reasons I'll never make an NPC in any RtD of my own creation. I'm just really bad at them, and they all end up the same.
Atleast, no major NPCs, anyway. Minor ones, like guards, shopkeepers and the like are passable, along with short use major NPCs, who the players will barely know.
Party member NPCs are a big no no for me. Takes away part of the game experience from the players, in my opinion.
Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:35 pm
TheKebbit
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2009 10:24 pm Posts: 3939 Location: NORTH
Re: FG Lounge
I use C. Always.
Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:01 pm
Nighthawk
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:15 pm Posts: 1288 Location: Heck if I know.
Re: FG Lounge
Tons of responses - awesome! Here are my thoughts, spoiler'd so that it doesn't take up a huge amount of space on the page: (Also, I use parentheses a lot. I'm kind of addicted to them. I hope it doesn't confuse ya'll too much. (Oh, I just used them again, didn't I.))
Arcalane wrote:
No plotline survives first contact with a mob of players.
Unless you have a way to control them , but yeah. Players want to do what Players want to do. I can understand that, having been one of them.
CaveCricket48 wrote:
Mine is X is going on, you can do Y to change it, or just leave it alone. The best way to put it is dropping someone off back in time. History's story wouldn't be exactly the same with that person back there, but they can either be a minor change or a major change.
Certain plot events WILL happen (just like going back in time isn't really going to allow you to stop an earthquake), while others can be delayed or prevented from happening.
This is a cool - it's a like a pre-planned branching storyline used for RtD. I might just mess with that idea a bit.
TorrentHKU wrote:
I use B more or less. It's good to let the player have freedom, but too much freedom and they won't know what to do. You can throw them a bone, but if you're just throwing random bones instead of everything you need for a skeleton, then they won't know what to make out of it. That was supposed to be an analogy but it tied into what you said about plot skeletons surprisingly well. Woo!
If I used the "skeleton" comparison any more than I already do, people would call me a paleontologist. But, really. I like to have things pre-planned (at least nowadays I do... Illusia is complete and utter C) so I tend to lean towards A, but then I realize that I'm leaning towards it too much and try to insert some leeway and make it B. Moderation always seems to be the ticket, doesn't it?
caekdaemon wrote:
I have CB. A basic skeleton of ideas which branch to let the players have complete freedom. They can do whatever they want, and I won't create a god like entity to stop them derailing the plot.
Or they can follow the plot for as long as they want, stop and side quest, then continue. Or whatever, really. The skeleton is more of a guideline for story, like major cities and stuff. The rest is made up on the fly.
I thought about creating a world (which involved a lot of poorly-planned out landscapes, maps, and especially NAMES. God, naming things is hard. That'll be my next episode, I think) but it became clear that I lacked the common sense and patience to flesh everything out. I'll definitely have to make a map of my next RtD, but as you said, I'll probably just concentrate on major cities and other stuff like terrain.
Fail Flail wrote:
caekdaemon wrote:
a god like entity to stop them derailing the plot.
*coughcough*, I can see a usefulness in these, if only to keep the players in line if something gets completely out of hand. I'd say B works best for me, it's a lot easier to create an interesting and coherent story when you have the details paved out, however freedom should always be a high priority, so I usually have the basics of an event but also envision a metic ♥♥♥♥ or two of branching story paths. One thing I must say is If you are going to have NPC, make sure you know everything about them to begin with, it may sound a bit cliche, but when you know a characters personality off by heart its a lot easier and fluid to write for them.
Though I WILL have a way to control players to some degree (I hope I don't get power-hungry and abuse that) it won't be some sort of god-like entity. I mentioned this before, but it's the idea that you are not your character. You focus on your character and can pretty much control him/her, yeah, but the way that he/she responds to certain situations depends upon morals, personality, and realistic motivation - things that people typing in actions online don't really have. As to the degree of freedom in story... (and this is kind of going back to Torrent's comment too) my belief is that "freedom" in any sort of story-driven situation doesn't necessarily have to be a branching plotline. Really, the player has an end goal, and the WAY that they reach it is up to them. Now, since the player(s) may not know anything about the world, that's where I come in. I know what I made, and since all the characters will have backstory, they'll (I'LL) plug in what the players cannot supply. And the last point is really appreciated. I've realized myself after reading it that I really do need to flesh out my NPCs more. I think I'll theorize on what you need to make a quality NPC later.
caekdaemon wrote:
Which is one of the reasons I'll never make an NPC in any RtD of my own creation. I'm just really bad at them, and they all end up the same.
Atleast, no major NPCs, anyway. Minor ones, like guards, shopkeepers and the like are passable, along with short use major NPCs, who the players will barely know.
Party member NPCs are a big no no for me. Takes away part of the game experience from the players, in my opinion.
Even though you seem firmly against the idea, I recommend you try to make a character SOME time in the future. Because, to use a quote, "There is nothing new under the sun". Even characters that may seem original are just a mashup of various experiences the creator has gone through. If I dissected my own life (practically an impossible task because human memory is imperfect, which is also why the so-called "originality" exists in the first place) you would probably be able to see where I got my ideas from. Minor NPCs are... yeah. Easy. They really shouldn't be fleshed out at all, if you won't be seeing them for more than 5 rolls. Better to leave them stereotypical or whatever. But PARTY MEMBERS. Damn. This is going to be huge in my next big project (which I've been talking about for such a long time here but It'll probably turn out to be not-as-awesome-as-I-hoped), because NPCs will have real personalities, and one of them in particular will have huge involvement in plot. Not to mention I want to add a boatload of fun events that players can take part in if they interact with said NPCs. I want to make character interaction fun, interesting, and rewarding, so people focus a bit less on grinding combat skills and a bit more on getting to know the guys they hang around.
TheKebbit wrote:
I use C. Always.
And that works, because improvisation is not only less work, but it can also be a hell of a lot of fun.
And thanks to all that great discussion, two new subjects have emerged: How to Name Things and How to Make a Good NPC.
Naming stuff has always been a difficulty for me (and I'm thinking I'm not the only one). When I come up with names, I usually just pull random sounds out of nowhere, and then feel ashamed because they're so weird and stupid-sounding. Yet, if I don't do that, the names end up being based off of some other language, and then I feel silly because all I'm doing is stealing parts of words and stitching them together. Finally, if I don't do either of those, my names end up as puns, like Pokemon names. Ex. Charmander. Hurr hurr, Char(coal) (Sala)mander. And that makes me feel the most ridiculous. What do you guys do?
~
The second subject is a little more complicated. What do you need to do to fully flesh out an NPC? If their entire personality is clear from the first time you've met them, they're clearly not very complex, which can be okay if it isn't important for them to be, but in my case, it kind of is important. This is a list of what I think is needed right now: 0 - A physical description. It's number 0 because I derped and forgot about it, then added it later. Also, it's kind of a "duh" thing to have. 1 - A basic, one-sentence personality description (just a rough outline, really). 2 - A motivation. Many characters have some kind of goal in mind, which determines part of how they act. 3 - Likes/Dislikes. Everyone needs to have certain things that just get on their nerves, and certain things they're crazy about. This makes them more interesting, and amusing. 4 - Vices/Virtues. There are certain things that are admirable in a person, and certain things that are clearly flaws. This is a necessity. 5 - Quirk(s). This is not necessary, but having a quirk in a character makes them memorable.
I feel like I'm over-thinking that second question, but hey. I'm just putting my thoughts out there. Feel free to comment or ignore my ramblings (especially on that second one ) and thanks again for your thoughts - they're really helping me to get mine in order.
Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:31 pm
caekdaemon
Data Realms Elite
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2009 3:00 pm Posts: 4144 Location: Hell.
Re: FG Lounge
I can't really help with the NPC creation part, since, hell, I need help on that too But I do think you've listed it all. But I think the entire personality, and their long term goals and agendas, should be kept out of view of the players. That'd make the character more mysterious, and make the players think more about whether or not that lovable rogue is as loyal as he says he is, or if that great warrior who joined the party is not a plant, or something. And hell, an old habit of mine is that anyone can die in my RtDs, hell, Lord Robert had a relatively high chance to bite the dust, and he was almost plot critical. I think it's better if people who would normally be saved from kicking the bucket should be allowed to die or be wounded. This lets the plot deform and flow, as well as giving the potential for a proper branching story line.
But the naming is pretty simple. I used to mix words and tweak it for better sounding.
The Republic of Rivin, The Ancient Empire of Rozanti, and god knows what else you feel like making. Just take two or more major traits from the location or object, and merge the words. Rivin is a merge of the words river and plains, except I chopped a little off to make it sound better. Rozanti is Rome and Byzantium merged with a little chop.
Magitech was pure spitballing in the IRC, though. Stein sounded good because tankard, and it captured that feel of an industrious nation.
Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:30 am
TheKebbit
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2009 10:24 pm Posts: 3939 Location: NORTH
Re: FG Lounge
It would be kind of silly to let players immediately know anything about a character, their motivations and/or their personality.
Go forth, ye, and let the facts be conveyed by description, dialogue, and action.
Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:16 am
kungfuchan13
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:15 am Posts: 82
Re: FG Lounge
Since I'm assuming no one really likes to read my walls of text, I put everything in spoilers. Sorry. They're still giant walls of text inside though. I really need to figure out how to post on forums properly. xD
Names:
As for names... Yeeep. I have one of the worst naming senses out there. I can't help with that. Well I CAN give you some ways I base my game character names from... Uh what does that mean? Well anyways... Basically... I think of a certain trait of the character that I want to highlight and then build off of that word or a variation of it. So like for my thief or assassin characters, I would take something like "wind" or "sylph" or "kaze" and make something like "Sylphie." Which, for some reason, is never taken. I'm guessing it's because only I have that kind of naming sense. >.< And note that I usually use female chars. So all names I make will be female names more or less. So basically... caek has it right. And why do you feel silly taking foreign words and turning them into names? I'm certain EVERYONE does it.
NPC Personality Notes 1:
As for NPCs, I do think that you covered most of what's necessary. However, I do think it could help if you can come up with an NPC's full personality to begin with. Or at least a general description. Like, say, a shy character that rarely talks. If you can add in a bit more, you can essentially use that character's personality to decide what he/she does. All the time. Well unless you make some psychopath. Then you can just go and make the character do whatever. As for motivation, the characters need a purpose first. I mean... Having a person who has full motivation to do nothing is kinda... Like you could end up with a character who's all like "I can do this!" and have no idea what on earth is going on. So yeah. Purpose is definitely a must. I'm also assuming that these are all the traits, both shown and not, right? Oh yeah... This will also be part of the personality, but just putting this out here: There are probably going to be some things your character would want to hide. Personality-wise. So that would also be important. And sorry about the lack of organization. And the almost no use of the return/enter key. And ellipses.
About Me (What I did related to this.):
As for my own attempts to do this type of thing... I'm just hoping the RtD I attempted to start has been locked by now. I'm just not good at holding my attention on something unless it's either REALLY interesting to the point of being dangerous or REALLY boring to the point of me just needing to get it over with. Like making games. I can't seem to concentrate on that long term. But short bursts I can do just fine. Aaaand... Probably not the right place to put this at all, but I seriously need help with the game I'm making. Mostly for ideas (I have no friends I can go to for this...), story (Same.), and art (If you've seen any of my mods, you would understand. And same I have no friends.). And motivation. Lots of that.
NPC Personality Ideas 2:
Well that got off topic. And so back to the personality of NPCs. As caek said, you normally do want to keep the entire personality and goals of your NPCs hidden. However, there are a few cases where you actually want the players to know everything about your character's personality, backstory, everything. Well skipping the unnecessary parts. Depending on what you deem to be necessary. I mean... You don't want the super extremely simple characters to have a really dark side. Unless you do. But that's WAY overused. Well everything's overused. And since I'm too lazy to go back, I'll continue here. (See? No organization.) I also think it would be important to keep track with your character's relationship with other people. I'm not sure how in depth to go with this, though... I mean for a normal computer game, it would be hard to keep track of every variable at once. (What I mean is like... A simple friendship/love/hate scale, say... But then mapped to EVERY major character.) But if you're willing to spend the time... It's possible to map out every relationship in just about every single possible way. I've put much thought into this for other games that will likely never see the light of day. Well really the same game that's mostly been brewing in my mind for several months. Most likely at least a year now. Also things like annoyance, embarrassement (How do you spell that? >.<), tiredness, and happiness will greatly affect how someone acts, but only temporarily. Like a status effect. Oh my... I will really need to make something to compile all this info and use it to determine how the character would act in X situation. Gonna work on it when I have free time I suppose.
And since I want to share my ideas for some forum game that I probably will not have enough time or be motivated enough to host:
Basic Ideas:
Basically... I've thought out a lot of things. This is based on the game I mentioned earlier that's been brewing in my head for a year or so. So. The main features of the game will be: 1. NPCs are fully thought out 2. Magic is properly explained (more details below) 3. Has two sides: World A (Earth/Normal), World B (Unnamed/Old/Parallel/Alternate)
Setting:
Starts off in a school. Characters find a hidden room, which, of course, has a portal in it. This obviously leads to the other world. Then there's the choice of going to the other world or not. Then things branch off from there but...
Old World: Standard fantasy RPG setting. Has magic.
Current World: Plain modern world. Not much to say. Yes it's a school setting. I intended this for a standalone single player RPG, but if anyone wants to host this game and wants this changed, I don't care. I might try hosting though... Might.
World A would just be a boring school life by the way. Not much fun.
World B has this plot: Main villain is taking the souls of living things and using their mana to try to create some form of Paradise.
Magic:
In this world, magic is essentially thought power. Like in Mousou Kikou, the power of people's delusions can overcome reality. So basically, the more strongly something is believed, the higher chance it has to happen or come true. However, the certain effect will only be as much as what is thought of. After that is essentially unknown. So in World B, the belief in another world created World A. But after that, World A progressed faster than World B and the occasional strong burst of magical energy created a link between the two worlds occasionally. In this way knowledge was passed between them. Also, by the nature of magic in this world, the way someone thinks about magic changes how he/she can use it. For example, someone who thinks of mana as a type of energy used to control forces will only be able to use magic in that way. But another who thinks of mana as particles that can be controlled freely using mind power will use magic in that way. There are also certain magics that are based on bloodlines and stuff and can only be used by people of that family. Also note that since different forms of magic are based on different theories, it is impossible to directly cancel the effect of different spell types. So a spell based on a spirit theory can't interfere with a spell based on a particle theory.
So to summarize: 1. Magic is based on thought power. 2. The extent of its effect is controlled exactly to the point that the caster thinks about it. 3. The way one thinks of mana changes how he/she can use it. 4. The method by which this energy can be called can also be chosen freely. Within certain boundaries, of course. 5. Different types of spells can't directly interfere with one another.
Other Skills:
I had a lot of ideas for these, but I of course wanted customizability (Go fake words!). Obviously this is kinda already a given in these types of games. So yeah. I was planning on having a system where you need to go to an office and register skills and/or spells there or else you would get arrested if you are caught using unregistered skills and/or spells. Although that idea's kinda bad for this type of game, too. Well it's fine to just make people think up their own skills. Everyone go crazy with their 11 hit combos (Yep. SAO ref.)
Stats:
These are also important! ^.^ L/R STR: Left/Right hand attacking strength/ability to carry L/R DEX: Left/Right hand fine control MND: Mental capacity. Affects CON. CON: The character's state of concentration. (2*MND - EMB - FER)* EYE: Eyesight. Affected by CON. (CON)* SPI: Fighting spirit. Basically makes enemies know your strength. FER: Fear. Affects all other stats negatively. (Enemy SPI - SPI)* EMB: Embarrassment. When it passes a certain point, a specified status effect will be applied.* ETH: Embarrassment threshold. The point at which the status effect from embarrassment will be applied.
*Stats that can change without status effects being applied
I typed the rest of this last night and fell asleep before I could hit the submit button. xD
I kinda feel bad for people who actually read through my whole posts... ._.
Last edited by kungfuchan13 on Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:46 am
Nighthawk
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:15 pm Posts: 1288 Location: Heck if I know.
Re: FG Lounge
Aaaand, I just finished reading all that.
The advice about the character creation is mainly what I focused on. I'm definitely going to have changing NPC relationships in my next game, but I think I'll just keep track of them in my head, as opposed to having some meter, because I don't like the idea of attaching numbers to peoples' relationships, even in a game.
I have huge enough plans for my next game currently, so I doubt I'll be using anyone else's ideas in the future. Though Torrent already stole the floating islands thingy, I'm still going to use it, just in a very different way.
Plans, plans, plans. Well, I'm making decent (if a bit slow) progress, and I hope to be ready to start my new game in a few months.
Now I kind of regret the fact that I didn't plan Illusia very well, because it could have been a lot cooler... and more balanced.
I'm also a little scared that the system I create will be too complex, or people will ignore the game because there are already so many running right now... and nobody will play it. But I suppose I'll just take things as they come.
Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:04 pm
TheKebbit
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2009 10:24 pm Posts: 3939 Location: NORTH
Re: FG Lounge
To be honest, it's an ineffective and stale idea to try and pin down character relationships and emotions in rule form (a stat for embarassment? really?).
If you're serious about story, and I mean really serious, you should treat each character as a completely distinct entity. The plot does not create the characters to fulfill a necessary trope; plot is derived from the interaction of characters, and the consequence of said interactions.
Note: don't take that as an assault on overarching plot. It's impossible to convey a grand storyline exclusively through what a few people do. But remember that everyone has a motive, and that society itself is just the interaction of lots of people.
Make the universe real; set up horizons, and mention places that are beyond them.
Quote:
"Part of the attraction of the L.R. is, I think, due to the glimpses of a large history in the background: an attraction like that of viewing far off an unvisited island, or seeing the towers of a distant city gleaming in a sunlit mist. To go there is to destroy the magic, unless new unattainable vistas are again revealed." — J. R. R. Tolkien
And above all, use emotional torque; give the audience sadness, bring them joy, hell, even make them pissed off at you. Nothing is worse than a story that induces nothing but apathy.
Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:53 pm
kungfuchan13
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:15 am Posts: 82
Re: FG Lounge
TheKebbit wrote:
A stat for embarassment? really?).
Yes really. ^.^ The thing is... Those stats revolve around combat. So certain things, like embarassment, would have an affect on reaction time, etc. All those stats are related to combat. I intended some of them to be hidden though. Like EMB.
And what do you mean by "treat each character as a completely distinct entity"? And that's what I intended to do, based on my understanding of what you're saying. As for conveying emotions... Well I'm not very good at this type of thing so I doubt I can make it work.
I agree that trying to put relationships into a set form can be a bad thing, but again this was for a game I was intending to make with computers choosing all the actions based on the "ruleified" emotions and relationships. Not much I can do about that in a computer game. Although... As Kirito said, "The only difference between the virtual world and the real world is the amount of information." So thinking about it like that... Rule-based emotions and relationships are valid, but IRL there are simply a hundred trillion more variables that have an effect on them. Like if person A hates person B but person B does something person A approves of, that's likely a boost to the respect meter. But then there are also things to consider, such as the context of the action, A's personality as a whole, memory, and it all just becomes a jumbled mess eventually. Which is why you never want to think about the full effects of any important action from a psychological point of view for a dozen or so characters. Your brain will explode. Or implode.
And thinking about relationships and emotions in a "normal" way isn't really all that different. Really it's mainly changing "hate = 10/10" to "hate a lot" type of thing. And then for personality, it would all be in "normal" format to begin with. Not really much you can do to change that. Unless I'm going about this completely wrong. Then I have no idea.
And if I'm making enemies, well, please tell me what I did wrong.
Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:30 am
TheKebbit
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2009 10:24 pm Posts: 3939 Location: NORTH
Re: FG Lounge
Oh. I hadn't even realized you were making this a coded game. My advice was directed toward everyone in general, anyway.
By "distinct entity" I meant that they had to be well-rounded characters with fully developed personalities; they have to have at least some motivations, drives, and characteristics beyond the smidgen that might be covered when you stab monsters alongside them or whatever.
Carry on, even though I think embarassment is a ridiculous stat and should be PURGED WITH FIRE.
(P.S. I do plenty of considerations on effects. My brain doesn't necessarily implode. It comes with experience in writing.)
Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:04 am
Nighthawk
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:15 pm Posts: 1288 Location: Heck if I know.
Re: FG Lounge
kungfuchan13 wrote:
As !!Kirito!! said,
SAO. All my yes. Waiting for the last few eps to come out so I can watch several in a row (I think I stopped at 17) and not wait a week for each one. It's gonna be AWESOME.
*Ahem*
Oh, and don't feel too bad, Kebbit - I didn't realize he was referring to making an actual video-game either - I'm still in the roleplaying mindset. Also, your comment... on that last line:
TheKebbit wrote:
give the audience sadness, bring them joy, hell, even make them pissed off at you. Nothing is worse than a story that induces nothing but apathy.
This is great advice. I need to focus on this when I do get around to running another game. It's one thing to make a game fun for those who play it. But making a game emotional for people who play it is even more noteworthy. It's always been my dream to create something that stirs emotion in people. I always feel like I'm really far away from that goal, but I'm making strides to get closer.
Anyway, your words hearten me - I'm glad there are more people out there who have similar views, if not interests (not to mention quoting Tolkien!) in making something that goes deeper than just being a game, or a story, or an idea. Because when I run into something that really affects me... those are the things that I remember best; those are the things that I look back on and wish I could experience anew.
Thanks for the wisdom, bro.
Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:49 am
TorrentHKU
Loose Canon
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 11:07 pm Posts: 2992 Location: --------------->
Re: FG Lounge
Nighthawk. Bro. You think the anime is awesome? Try the light novels. Having consumed both, I can say that the LNs are better than the Anime. Past SAO anyway, the Anime did it very right. ALO is not as good though.
Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:00 am
kungfuchan13
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:15 am Posts: 82
Re: FG Lounge
TheKebbit wrote:
Carry on, even though I think embarassment is a ridiculous stat and should be PURGED WITH FIRE.
Hahaha. Well I'm certain it does have a pretty major effect in battles. Maybe not so much in solo fights against monsters, but it would just depend on the person. A person's mental state is very important. Yes yes it is.
TheKebbit wrote:
(P.S. I do plenty of considerations on effects. My brain doesn't necessarily implode. It comes with experience in writing.)
Ah. Well for now, at least, my brain would implode.
TorrentHKU wrote:
Having consumed both, I can say that the LNs are better than the Anime. Past SAO anyway, the Anime did it very right. ALO is not as good though.
Hmmm... The SAO arc was good. Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer as sad as ever. T.T That song will totally make me cry every time I hear it now. As for ALO, I like it. Haven't quite caught up yet but so far it's good. Although... What happened to Jothunheim or whatever it was called? Well now all I need is to see GGO Kirito and SINON! Oh and Yuuki.
Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:07 am
TorrentHKU
Loose Canon
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 11:07 pm Posts: 2992 Location: --------------->
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