Data Realms Fan Forums :: View topic - CERN: Neutrinos may be capable of FTL Travel

Associated Press wrote:

CERN says a neutrino beam fired from a particle accelerator near Geneva to a lab 454 miles (730 kilometers) away in Italy traveled 60 nanoseconds faster than the speed of light. Scientists calculated the margin of error at just 10 nanoseconds, making the difference statistically significant. But given the enormous implications of the find, they still spent months checking and rechecking their results to make sure there was no flaws in the experiment.

Asklar wrote:

No, it simply can't be right.
They can't beat Einstein, right?

Because damn, this is a big deal.

Homophanim wrote:

Relativity has been disproven.

Nonsequitorian wrote:

I can believe it. Having studied quantum physics, even if I was ♥♥♥♥ at it, I know a thing or two about a thing or two. The speed of light is sort of in flux, always, because it's changing as space grows. Or, that's if I remember correctly.

Nonsequitorian wrote:

It isn't really a constant. There are galaxies that we can't ever see because their light will never be able to reach us, because the galaxies and space are distorting and moving so fast. The fact that a particle broke the theory of relativity doesn't surprise me. What they aren't telling you are the conditions. You need more info than just a story.

Quote:

This [motion] is not due to motion through space, but rather to the expansion of space itself

Nonsequitorian wrote:

Now I'm sure that the particle DID go faster than light, but then there's also something which they aren't telling you. Hell, a ton of things can go faster than light if the light is traveling through certain substances. That's no news. That's not what happened, because that's all in a vacuum, but you understand what I'm getting at.

Nonsequitorian wrote:

And who says that Einstein was right? E = mc^2 is only a tiny bit of the theory of relativity. It's the equation for general relativity, yes, but there's much more to it. And much of that has been wrong. Einstein wasn't a god, he was a genius. A genius doesn't always have to be right, you know.

carriontrooper wrote:

wait... c in flux due to the space-time expanding?
Does this mean the universe expands faster than c?

Nonsequitorian wrote:

I meant that c is in flux because space-time is shifting as the universe expands. The speed of light now is different from the speed of light at the big bang.

Nonsequitorian wrote:

I'm pretty sure that we have gotten hydrogen atoms to go faster than a beam of light going through some specially formed gas. I think it was more because the gas reflected the light so much that it was like it was going slow, but wasn't, it was just bouncing back and forth a bunch.

CCS wrote:

This may a big deal....BUT we don't even have AT light speed technologies expect particle accelerators and the like, what do we need FTL for?

Also, citations (other than the OP) deserves more educational and organizational resources, Wikipedia is not authoritative enough. :neutral:

CCS wrote:

Also, citations (other than the OP) deserves more educational and organizational resources, Wikipedia is not authoritative enough. :neutral:

Author:	Dr. Evil [ Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:00 pm ]
Post subject:	CERN: Neutrinos may be capable of FTL Travel
This is a huge freaking deal. Associated Press wrote: CERN says a neutrino beam fired from a particle accelerator near Geneva to a lab 454 miles (730 kilometers) away in Italy traveled 60 nanoseconds faster than the speed of light. Scientists calculated the margin of error at just 10 nanoseconds, making the difference statistically significant. But given the enormous implications of the find, they still spent months checking and rechecking their results to make sure there was no flaws in the experiment. This potentially changes, without a stitch of exaggeration, everything. If this is true almost everything in the theoretical physics textbooks is completely wrong. Hell, if this is what it looks like, this is as big a moment in physics as when we first split the atom. Thoughts?

Author:	Asklar [ Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: CERN: Neutrinos may be capable of FTL Travel
No, it simply can't be right. They can't beat Einstein, right? Because damn, this is a big deal.

Author:	Homophanim [ Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: CERN: Neutrinos may be capable of FTL Travel
Asklar wrote: No, it simply can't be right. They can't beat Einstein, right? Because damn, this is a big deal. Relativity has been disproven.

Author:	Asklar [ Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: CERN: Neutrinos may be capable of FTL Travel
But he was right in many stuff. Still, it's just so wierd hearing this. Like, I've always heard that the speed of light is the max limit for speed in the universe, and now there is a possibility that there exist particles that move faster.

Author:	Dr. Evil [ Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: CERN: Neutrinos may be capable of FTL Travel
Homophanim wrote: Relativity has been disproven. [citation needed] Nonsequitorian wrote: I can believe it. Having studied quantum physics, even if I was ♥♥♥♥ at it, I know a thing or two about a thing or two. The speed of light is sort of in flux, always, because it's changing as space grows. Or, that's if I remember correctly. Not AFAIK. People have proposed theories for variable c / g / planck's constant but these were all without proof, and in many cases, easy to prove false, since c has implications in gravity waves whose effects from millions of years ago are easy enough to observe IIRC. Nonsequitorian wrote: It isn't really a constant. There are galaxies that we can't ever see because their light will never be able to reach us, because the galaxies and space are distorting and moving so fast. The fact that a particle broke the theory of relativity doesn't surprise me. What they aren't telling you are the conditions. You need more info than just a story. That's different. If spacetime is expanding, then a particle(or galaxy) can appear to exceed c, but it's only the expansion of spacetime that's causing this. in other words: Quote: This [motion] is not due to motion through space, but rather to the expansion of space itself Nonsequitorian wrote: Now I'm sure that the particle DID go faster than light, but then there's also something which they aren't telling you. Hell, a ton of things can go faster than light if the light is traveling through certain substances. That's no news. That's not what happened, because that's all in a vacuum, but you understand what I'm getting at. Again, you're getting it wrong. Lots of things can exceed the speed of light in a medium, but nothing that has real mass can exceed c as per E=mc^2 (except for virtual photons, and non-information-bearing particles). A neutrino has real mass, and if E=mc^2 is true, cannot exceed c. Except that these one apparently did. Nonsequitorian wrote: And who says that Einstein was right? E = mc^2 is only a tiny bit of the theory of relativity. It's the equation for general relativity, yes, but there's much more to it. And much of that has been wrong. Einstein wasn't a god, he was a genius. A genius doesn't always have to be right, you know. My (inexpert) guess is that 90% of theoretical physics relies on E = mc^2 being true. It is not a 'tiny bit of the theory of relativity', it is the foundation. If E = mc^2 is false, Lorentz invariance is potentially false, which undermines quantum physics, the Standard Model of particle physics, and general relativity. - *I'm no expert physicist. This entire post is IIRC and AFAIK.

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Author:	carriontrooper [ Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:54 am ]
Post subject:	Re: CERN: Neutrinos may be capable of FTL Travel
wait... c in flux due to the space-time expanding? Does this mean the universe expands faster than c? Because if it's true you said that there are galaxies whose light will never reach us, and light goes at c, this would mean that the universe expands at c or more. But there's also the possibility that the universe expands at almost-c speed, and the light from the galaxy just haven't reached us yet all those years... And what about the Muon that lived longer when it reaches almost-c speeds?

Author:	Dr. Evil [ Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:47 am ]
Post subject:	Re: CERN: Neutrinos may be capable of FTL Travel
Quick definition for clarity's sake: c = the speed of light in a vacuum = 299 792 458 m/s carriontrooper wrote: wait... c in flux due to the space-time expanding? Does this mean the universe expands faster than c? No, and Yes. c is constant (see my responses to Nonsequitorian above and below) but the universe can and does expand faster than c. Nonsequitorian wrote: I meant that c is in flux because space-time is shifting as the universe expands. The speed of light now is different from the speed of light at the big bang. Here. There's no evidence for this, in fact, the evidence goes the complete other way. In fact, we're so sure c is constant that we've based the official measurement for a meter off of it. Nonsequitorian wrote: I'm pretty sure that we have gotten hydrogen atoms to go faster than a beam of light going through some specially formed gas. I think it was more because the gas reflected the light so much that it was like it was going slow, but wasn't, it was just bouncing back and forth a bunch. It's very well documented that the speed of light in a medium is slower than the speed of light in a vacuum. It is easy to exceed the speed of light in a medium (in fact, neutrinos do this all the time). However, if E=mc^2 holds true, then it is impossible for a particle with positive mass to exceed c, the speed of light in a vacuum. CERN's neutrinos moving through a medium exceeded the speed of light in a vacuum. In other words, the neutrinos traveled 760(?)km with a total average speed greater than c, which is 299 792 458 m/s.

Author:	Tomaster [ Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:29 am ]
Post subject:	Re: CERN: Neutrinos may be capable of FTL Travel
Haha ♥♥♥♥ you light. We finally beat your speedy ass. I look forward to never being able to take advantage of these developments, since I'll be dead and (hopefully, if my family follows my funeral plans) residing at the bottom of the Pacific Ocean after being shot out of a cannon.

Author:	Duh102 [ Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:08 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: CERN: Neutrinos may be capable of FTL Travel
So now we just need to figure out how to work this into macroscopic scale FTL travel. Or how to become neutrinos long enough to get somewhere.

Author:	Homophanim [ Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:06 am ]
Post subject:	Re: CERN: Neutrinos may be capable of FTL Travel

Author:	CCS [ Tue Sep 27, 2011 2:43 am ]
Post subject:	Re: CERN: Neutrinos may be capable of FTL Travel
This may a big deal....BUT we don't even have AT light speed technologies expect particle accelerators and the like, what do we need FTL for? Also, citations (other than the OP) deserves more educational and organizational resources, Wikipedia is not authoritative enough.

Author:	Homophanim [ Tue Sep 27, 2011 4:18 am ]
Post subject:	Re: CERN: Neutrinos may be capable of FTL Travel
CCS wrote: This may a big deal....BUT we don't even have AT light speed technologies expect particle accelerators and the like, what do we need FTL for? Also, citations (other than the OP) deserves more educational and organizational resources, Wikipedia is not authoritative enough. The internet is a whole lot smarter if you treat wikipedia as a source index rather than use the summary of the sources as knowledge. Also, that's not how technology works.

Author:	Dr. Evil [ Wed Sep 28, 2011 12:38 am ]
Post subject:	Re: CERN: Neutrinos may be capable of FTL Travel
CCS wrote: Also, citations (other than the OP) deserves more educational and organizational resources, Wikipedia is not authoritative enough. There are approximately equal number of serious errors per article on Wikipedia and The Encyclopaedia Britannica. EDIT: lol paywall Also the point of this ins't (immediately) FTL travel. The point is that if we figure out what we've got wrong, we might finally be able to unify gravity, and get a working grand unified theory. From there, you get (potentially) cold fusion, etc, etc, etc.

Author:	Asklar [ Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:38 am ]
Post subject:	Re: CERN: Neutrinos may be capable of FTL Travel
And what you see in many Sci-Fi and futuristic games could become real (Well, it depends, but still).

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Author:	nicolasx [ Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:04 am ]
Post subject:	Re: CERN: Neutrinos may be capable of FTL Travel
This isn't new news to me, you guys ever hear of the theoretical Tachyon particle btw if it did go faster than light that means allot of theories based on the light cone is wrong which means that paradoxes are possible and we can send ourselves a message in the past