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Where is Cortex Command going, Data?
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Author:  Mackerel [ Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:42 am ]
Post subject:  Where is Cortex Command going, Data?
Image

WELL BIG MAN, YOU DID IT.
You accomplished your 11 year old dream. (From Spandex to Developer.)
And I'm here to question every part of it.

So what's next? Is this the end of one long finally achieved trophy? Or can we expect more from your fully credited team of developers?


Can you explain why you thought it would be a good idea to spread this trailer on your devblog?

In my honest opinion, this has got to be the most underhanded way of bringing hype to a game.
CC has nothing to do with dubstep related excitement, being fast, or zoomy when in reality it's a slow strategy game.
You don't tell people a game plays like (top) when it actually is (bottom).


On October 9th, ∞ Degree Burns were delivered upon CC. Not to mention that you were also given a fair amount of displeased users, which complained about how they didn't get what they paid for, or finding out that they bought an unfinished game.
I've read the IGN review and had to agree for the most part.
How does it make you feel knowing people are displeased with your release?
You must have expected this in some way. If so, why release the game's current state and slap a "Finished" label on it?

I've underlined parts of my post to generalize the questions I would like you to answer.
Author:  Data [ Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Where is Cortex Command going, Data?
Hi; I of course wish that there was universal praise and jubilation over something not only I, but the dozen other people worked very hard to put together over a very long time. There was actually a lot of positive feedback too - the project has always been polarizing for some reason. IGN taking a ♥♥♥♥ on our work is almost a point of pride; reading that made some people I know MORE inclined to play the game, not less.

I am proud of the trailer and think it is damn cool (especially the music); but i guess you do have a point that it could make it seem like a more action-y game than it is (deliberately) designed to be. Didn't even occur to me until now. However, calling it "underhanded"... please. We just tried to make it fun and interesting to watch, and to represent the different things you can do in the game in a reasonable trailer length (it is already damn long by industry standards)

Seriously, why the F do some people keep jumping to the conclusion that we/I are trying to deliberately screw or disappoint anyone? Why is that even considered as a possibility, after such a long development period? Is this really a decade-long prank? It'd be like the lamest scam in the history of mankind, in terms of effort/reward for us. Think for a second before your knee-jerk cynicism kicks in next time.

How is it not clear that we are earnestly trying our damn best to make (and FINISH) the best damn game(s) that we can, and then also market them. This is the first time I've ever: programmed a physics engine, designed and implemented a real-time tactical game on top of it, a turn-based strategic metagame on top of that, collaborated with others for art/music/content/porting, and bringing it all to the market. You try that and see if you get everything perfect the first time around, ok?

I've answered your questions, now how about you answer this: Why can't you give us a goddamn break already? You're not achieving anything other than killing my motivation to continue working on this and future games. If you've got nothing positive or at least constructive to say, then please don't say anything at all.

Thanks~
Author:  Mackerel [ Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Where is Cortex Command going, Data?
Holy ♥♥♥♥ haha

Data wrote:
If you've got nothing positive or at least constructive to say

I asked you questions about your game and you're taking it offensively like some 12 year old DeviantArt brat, chill out man.
I'm actually very happy you took the time to give me answers to the things I was curious about, so for that, I thank you.

Data wrote:
Why can't you give us a goddamn break already?

You seem to think I represent some sort of hivemind. In all reality I wish that were the case, but no.
You're dealing with the regular ♥♥♥♥ every developer goes through called half-assed criticism.

As for your motivation, I hope you hold it high because I'm looking forward to your future releases.
Author:  Data [ Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Where is Cortex Command going, Data?
I didn't say you represent the other hecklers, but you sure do sound the same. It's becoming clear to me the reason why you and they don't just shrug and move on to the many other games out there that might suit you better: because you actually really love this one and/or you love to get a reaction out of dev who actually makes the mistake of occasionally taking the time to address your "feedback".

How about this: you try to put as much work into something, anything, and then have some stranger come by and not really criticize your actual work, but draw shitty conclusions about your personal ethics and character based on honest mistakes you've made in that work. Let's see how chill you'll be.
Author:  Mackerel [ Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Where is Cortex Command going, Data?
Quote:
Let's see how chill you'll be.

Pretty ♥♥♥♥ chill on the account of having been through it multiple times.
I'm not a life coach, so I'll let you figure it out yourself.

Again, thank you, and try to keep positive, Dan.
I hope to see you come out with something better than the last and so on.
Author:  Bad Boy [ Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Where is Cortex Command going, Data?
Data wrote:
How about this: you try to put as much work into something, anything, and then have some stranger come by and not really criticize your actual work, but draw shitty conclusions about your personal ethics and character based on honest mistakes you've made in that work. Let's see how chill you'll be.
Yeah, Data's right on the money here. It'd be one thing if you had actually given constructive criticism and feedback, in the vein of "such and such feature has whatever problem and should be fixed in this way" but all you really did (in the first post at least) was ask what's next, accuse him of being underhanded and tell him that a lot of people were unhappy with the release. The accusation is uncalled for and it's pretty safe to assume he'd know as much as or more about criticism directed at his work than you do. There's a pretty broad line between constructive criticism and insults and you were more or less entirely on the wrong side of it I'm afraid.
Mackerel wrote:
Pretty ♥♥♥♥ chill on the account of having been through it multiple times.
Since you're 19 I assume the person who's "been through it multiple times" here is Data, because I doubt you have any major projects that have been going since you were 8. In that case, you should probably be happier that he's not chill about it. That means that he has wanted/wants CC to be something he's proud of and that he cares about people's opinions on it. He'd only be chill about it if he didn't give a ♥♥♥♥ (or, I suppose, if it was in his nature to be very laid back), so it's a good sign that he's not.



Edit:
I suppose this doesn't make me look great either but your response was just too stupid for me not to share it. Sorry in advance for any problems this may cause, though I post this I'd much rather things not devolve into a flamewar.
Mackerel wrote:
Mackerel wrote:
Pretty ♥♥♥♥ chill on the account of having been through it multiple times.
Quote:
Since you're 19 I assume the person who's "been through it multiple times" here is Data, because I doubt you have any major projects that have been going since you were 8. In that case, you should probably be happier that he's not chill about it.


Image

If you weren't so busy being the ♥♥♥♥ white knight of the god damn internet, you'd realize I was using relate-able feelings to try to help him feel better about all the backlash he gets on Cortex Command.

Butt the ♥♥♥♥ out next time before you want to act like a smart-ass.
Dude, are you really 19? You should consider addressing the fact that you come off as a 14 - 16 year old (I honestly first thought you were around that age).
White knight of the internet, I've criticised this game where it deserves it quite a few times. So no, I don't think data needs rescuing or that his game is perfect, I'm trying to instruct you on how to get a point across without being an ass about it, a lesson you clearly have yet to learn.
And I really don't see how saying that you'd be chill in this situation is particularly relate-able for Data, at best it may come off as a callous attempt at being relate-able, but it read to me as you simply brushing aside his point.
I also feel I should add that I'm not trying to say that every word you've posted here has been bad or offensive, you've mentioned you appreciate the game and you did raise some good points, the problem is that much of your initial post and a lot of your reactions read as if they were written to goad and insult.

Oh and nice sig quote, I'm glad I'm that important to you.
Author:  Dragon239 [ Fri Nov 02, 2012 1:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Where is Cortex Command going, Data?
Data
Data
I love you <3
Author:  Mackerel [ Fri Nov 02, 2012 4:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Where is Cortex Command going, Data?
Bad Boy wrote:
YOU HAVEN'T BEEN THROUGH THE THINGS DATA HAS YOU AREN'T COOL OR SMART AND IMMATURE but you raise some good points

No seriously.
How ♥♥♥♥ retarded are you?
Author:  Bad Boy [ Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Where is Cortex Command going, Data?
You seemed to take offence at everything I said, and still do, so I tried to not make the entire post consist of negative points about you. Your asking data what next was a fine question to ask and one I'm sure most people here would love to know the answer to in detail, even if, like just about everything else you've posted, it was phrased aggressively and had some measure of insult written in.
However, I am sorry for calling you immature in my previous post, while I do stand by that opinion, more strongly now based on your most recent post, it was rude of me and my aim here is to be polite. In my defence, I was posting on quite a few hours with no sleep, while taking a short break from studying for a Chemistry midterm.

All that aside, I'd ask that you calm down and try to reason things out instead of completely missing the point of my posts. I did not post in this thread to try to troll you or anger you (and I can only hope that's not why you're replying to my posts), I posted because I disagreed with your opinion. As a basis for reasonable discussion I posted the reasons I thought you were in the wrong, rather than lashing out and ignoring what I wrote, you should try reading it and, if you disagree, replying coherently. One of the main advantages of using forums for communication (vs. irc or something else instantaneous) is that you can always take a break to calm down before you reply to something. So, I'll try again to sum this up in the hopes that you'll read it properly instead of posting knee-jerk reactions. If you skip everything else in a blind rage, at least read this much please:

    1. The main purpose of this thread you made seems to have been to incense data and insult him as a person based on a trailer for his game. Perhaps that wasn't the point of it, but that's what it came off as. If it was deliberate then what did you think the reaction was going to be, anyone would be pissed off about it, all the more so since the whole thing came off as somewhat snarky. If it was not deliberate, you should be more careful how you phrase things, it's quite easy for one's tone to be misread over the internet and things don't always read the same to other people (for example, as far as I can tell you probably think I'm being a smarmy, condescending ♥♥♥♥♥ with his head up his own ass, and though it could certainly come across that way, it's really not what I'm trying to get across).

    2. Like it or not you are acting immature, you were not acting particularly so before I posted but you have been since. A thread posted on a forum is an open discussion, you have no grounds to tell anyone to butt out and if someone disagrees with you your first reaction should not be to send them an angry and insulting pm, nor should your second reaction be to continue to insult while ignoring their reply. Rather, you should do what is expected of a reasonable, reasoning, intelligent human being and respond coherently and with real counterarguments instead of insults. And so you know, all of this does make you look childish, your signature included. It does not, as you may hope, make me seem unintelligent (except perhaps in that I do not simply let this lie) or make you seem smart, it may have done so when you were a child but not anymore. Oh and please don't take this as an insult because it's honestly not meant to be.

Sorry for the wall of text by the way, I don't much like getting arguments, on the internet or in real life, and brevity is not my forte when I'm upset.
Author:  Gotcha! [ Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Where is Cortex Command going, Data?
Wow, why do you take criticism so hard, Data? Why can't you accept some people are disappointed?

You released a game as 'finished'. Now whether you believe it's finished or not, a 1.0 slapped on a game pretty much means it is finished. Some bug hunting here and there, but that's it.
Your game is nowhere near finished. I hate IGN but even I have to agree with them here: It feels like an alpha.

Perhaps Mackerel wasn't the most polite person here (were some posts deleted?), but I think he has asked very valid questions, and I would have loved to see your answers to them.

Data wrote:
Seriously, why the F do some people keep jumping to the conclusion that we/I are trying to deliberately screw or disappoint anyone? Why is that even considered as a possibility, after such a long development period? Is this really a decade-long prank? It'd be like the lamest scam in the history of mankind, in terms of effort/reward for us. Think for a second before your knee-jerk cynicism kicks in next time.

In all honesty, I have been feeling that you are deliberately trying to disappoint us.
Why were the crab cave and zombie cave missions created? Where are the other missions? Is the metagame all we're going to get? It sure seems to go that way.
Why suddenly introduce a horribly flawed no friendly fire? It COMPLETELY changed the game and not for the good. How fun is it to see 25 actors standing in one spot, creating a superturret? I don't think it's fun. Not to mention the amount of hole digging the AI does when dozens of units standing in the same hole try to traverse through sand or snow, burying themselves alive until they fall off the map.
For godknowshowmanyyears the game was without FF and was fun, but just before throwing it on steam a poorly implemented thing like this was decided. It turned the game around a 100%.
I am sure there were other means to solve this problem of AI gibhugging eachother to death without breaking one of CC's major traits. Not to mention it'd be nice to have it optional so oldies like me can enjoy the good old days of ludicrous gibbing.
I could go on about the game's (recently added) flaws, but this post is not about them.

Data wrote:
How is it not clear that we are earnestly trying our damn best to make (and FINISH) the best damn game(s) that we can, and then also market them. This is the first time I've ever: programmed a physics engine, designed and implemented a real-time tactical game on top of it, a turn-based strategic metagame on top of that, collaborated with others for art/music/content/porting, and bringing it all to the market. You try that and see if you get everything perfect the first time around, ok?

How is it not clear? Your fanbase hardly ever hears from you. And I cannot say this often enough; You threw a game out on Steam with a giant 1.0 on its face, but it's simply far from finished.

If you had labeled this release B28 I bet a lot of whiney people (like me) would have kept their mouths shut. But I'd like you to understand why some of us are severely disappointed.
I am NOT trying to flame you. I loved CC. If I didn't like it I wouldn't be here. But promises that I think will never be fulfilled and major game altering changes ruined CC for me, and after all the time I've invested in creating mods for this game, aren't I just a little bit entitled to be frustrated and disappointed about what appears to be an out-of-beta release?

/vent

Edit: Also everything Nonsequitorian said, who is way better with words and far less frustrated than me.
Author:  Data [ Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Where is Cortex Command going, Data?
Let's make this absolutely clear once and for all: we did NOT release 1.0 as a "finished" anything. What software is actually finished at 1.0?? I thought it was obvious (my bad), but apparently i have to spell these things out much more:

It was released as a complete and playable game. Not finished. Finished to me implies that we're not going to touch it again. Complete means everything is in there to play full game sessions the way we intended them, but still might need polish and, yes, finishing touches - which we are still working on! These include usability/tutorial improvements, more audio/music for the metagame, bug fixes, etc etc.

Some of you have been around long enough that I'd think you would have more confidence in that we're going to see this game through properly, despite lulls in development. Why assume we're abandoning it now? Weird!
Author:  clOWN [ Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Where is Cortex Command going, Data?
Complaining about a game having a "misleading trailer" could be done with EVERY GAME EVER that did a CGI trailer. come on.

Also This game has been out for like ever in a beta stage. Saying you were misinformed is almost a consolitous rash reaction. The master Race of gamers should never pander to such attitudes of Handholding with game purchases. :-P
Author:  Mackerel [ Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Where is Cortex Command going, Data?
Data wrote:
Some of you have been around long enough that I'd think you would have more confidence in that we're going to see this game through properly, despite lulls years of ignoring development. Why assume we're abandoning it now? Weird!


The whole "OH MY GOD GUUUUUUUYS, CORTEX COMMAND, LAUNCH!!!!.
I mean, you can't just say that and expect people to "get" you. And no one said you were finished with it.
I even asked you about where you were going to take the game from this point on, but you never answered it because you were too busy ranting about how Cortex Command doesn't get the praise you want it too.

In my honest opinion, you're being a child right now.
Author:  No_0ne [ Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Where is Cortex Command going, Data?
Why isn't this thread closed yet
Author:  Ragdollmaster [ Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Where is Cortex Command going, Data?
Image


While I could certainly spend a few minutes on this and write a giant wall of text that would make all the previous "rants" shrivel in shame like it's a cold day in the boys' locker room, I'll just sum this up really quickly:

  • Games that are considered to be "1.0" are basically the base retail product and are no way implied to be "done." I'm not just talking about fixing bugs, tons of games constantly update and add new content and mechanics to games past the "1.0" stage.
  • Ergo: As Data has reiterated too many times to count, the "1.0" launch is NOT him saying, "Hey, here's the finished product that I will now proceed to never touch again." If you choose to interpret it that way, it doesn't change the fact that that's not what this is.
  • Many of the issues with Cortex Command, like the CPU intensity and derpy AI, aren't really things you can fix overnight. CC is a twelve year project with an enormous amount of code behind it. As time has gone on, new content has been placed on the foundations of the old, and some of the biggest issues are also the most fundamental: fixing them would also require "fixing" much of what came afterwards. In many respects, to fix Cortex Command properly, Data would really have to do it over- and who the hell would want to do that after 12 years of work?
  • In regards to "criticism:" I'm not going to 'defend' Data per se, as [constructive] criticism is vital to growing a game, but it's not like you need to keep telling him that the AI sucks and that there are a lot of other issues with the game that make it hard for many people to enjoy. There is no need to beat a dead horse. He knows about every issue that's been brought up either in this thread or in previous threads or in that IGN review: as a developer, I think Data does a splendid job of looking at user feedback. Either he's already planning on fixing/redoing what needs to be fixed/redone, or no amount of "criticism" will lead him to do that, so you're really just wasting your breath bringing it up. I don't mean to discourage constructive criticism, but there was nothing really helpful to Data in here, so I understand him not being overjoyed with the OP.

Carry on, angry people.
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