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Cortex command Mob editor / creater. Yes or no?
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Author:  LordVonKain [ Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Cortex command Mob editor / creater. Yes or no?
I was debating to put this here or in mod making, not really sure which one it applied to so i ended up with putting it here, If any mod believe this is in the wrong place by all means move it to where you see fit.

Now i'm curious if anyone had attempted or if there is a Mob editor / creator existing , by this i just mean a simple program that allows the user to simply edit a ini file of a Mob without loads of information all over the place (i.e it shows the main important parts such as cost, the impulse limit and offsets etc)

i understand loads of people know the ini and understand how it works with ease yet there is a number of people (myself included) who doesn't now what most people would do is more of a trial and error, they open the ini have a look attempt to apply common sense to some values change them etc,

But that take time, and time isn't something everyone have. so it would be faster and easier if there's a program that allow a user to create a mob by copying an existing template from vanilla, allow to easily edit the values of the said mob and allow to tweak offsets with visual images.

Now I'm no programmer but i understand that the program may be difficult to make ( or it could be simple). I'm just wondering if people here had attempted it but to no avail and if people think it's worth it.

Cause i know there a lot of games that have similar tools like this, Mount and blade for example have two to my knowledge.

Now i understand that would create a lot of idiots making 5 second mob army or overpowered stuff, but along with this it could improve the creation speed of mod.

In short, Just curious about the community opinion of such a tool.
Author:  CaveCricket48 [ Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cortex command Mob editor / creater. Yes or no?
Mod making programs have been tried in the past (I believe someone made an HDFirearm maker way back), but I doubt you would be able to make a program that would allow the user to make a mod faster than someone who was simply using Notepad.

All the stuff you see in an INI file does something and is changeable, so custom editor or not, you'd still be seeing a large amount of data.

Now, a few dedicated editors would be helpful, mainly a walkpath and offset editor, but anything beyond those is not needed.
Author:  nicolasx [ Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cortex command Mob editor / creater. Yes or no?
I think it would be great if a little harder to use than most programs,
I know someone tried to create something like this but he never finished it
I would love to see one personally since to me ini is still a little intimidating to modify or make
in short HECK YES
Author:  LordVonKain [ Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cortex command Mob editor / creater. Yes or no?
i agree with the offsets, i only really posted this cause i been looking around at a number of games (indie to be exact) and a large number of them have similar programs or editing tools.

with the current ability of people most mods tend to require two people, one to do the sprites one to do the code (unless the spriter is good enough to do the code like a fair number of people here) and i do know there maybe a lot of talented spriters here who just lack the ability (time) or as nicolas said find ini editing too daunting.
Author:  Sims_Doc [ Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cortex command Mob editor / creater. Yes or no?
nicolasx wrote:
I think it would be great if a little harder to use than most programs,
I know someone tried to create something like this but he never finished it
I would love to see one personally since to me ini is still a little intimidating to modify or make
in short HECK YES


Personally, i would want the game to have something like this but also giving you the ablity to created a blank slate for a actor and sprite it in the program and work out all of the damage values and et cetera.
Author:  TheLastBanana [ Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cortex command Mob editor / creater. Yes or no?
Yeah, this has been attempted before a few times. Ultimately, every time it's been tried, the project has been dropped, because it's just too complicated. There's just too much to keep track of, particularly when it comes to things copying each other - one thing can contain a copy of another, which can contain a copy of another, and so on. On top of that, setting up a system that can actually parse a mod so it can be edited will be a nightmare.

The other problem with a program like this is that, at one point or another, you're simply not going to be able to include GUI functionality for everything you can do in an INI file and still keep it easy-to-use. You have two choices: allow full customization of all parameters (in which case you're just putting a different interface over top of what we already have) or restrict it to certain things and only allow for simpler modifications (in which case it doesn't take that long to do it by hand anyway). Either way, you don't get much of a userbase. In the first case, it's too complicated for new modders, and for older modders, they're likely more accustomed to straight-up INI editing anyway. In the second case, it's too shallow for older modders, and while it's potentially useful for newer modders, it'll only be good for producing lackluster mods.
Ultimately, the benefits of something like this aren't going to make up for the time spent developing it.

Now, that said, an offset editor would be nice, and somewhat easier to make. I'd say that's the area people waste the most time on in mods.
Author:  nicolasx [ Mon Oct 24, 2011 4:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cortex command Mob editor / creater. Yes or no?
Quote:
The other problem with a program like this is that, at one point or another, you're simply not going to be able to include GUI functionality for everything you can do in an INI file and still keep it easy-to-use. You have two choices: allow full customization of all parameters (in which case you're just putting a different interface over top of what we already have) or restrict it to certain things and only allow for simpler modifications (in which case it doesn't take that long to do it by hand anyway). Either way, you don't get much of a userbase. In the first case, it's too complicated for new modders, and for older modders, they're likely more accustomed to straight-up INI editing anyway. In the second case, it's too shallow for older modders, and while it's potentially useful for newer modders, it'll only be good for producing lackluster mods.
Ultimately, the benefits of something like this aren't going to make up for the time spent developing it.


Ok to clear up why this would be useful, most older modders aren't going to use this, but new ones in the community would. I would like a tool for the same reason that people use CAD, even though its "just putting a different interface" over actually going and drawing on graph paper, or thinking in your head, now you may not be able to do everything, but that doesn't mean that you could quickly use this type of mod to, say make a quick actor and then modify what you want in code, right now it just seems modding is too difficult to get into for some people, and maybe if we had a tool that would change
Author:  Sims_Doc [ Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cortex command Mob editor / creater. Yes or no?
nicolasx wrote:
Quote:
The other problem with a program like this is that, at one point or another, you're simply not going to be able to include GUI functionality for everything you can do in an INI file and still keep it easy-to-use. You have two choices: allow full customization of all parameters (in which case you're just putting a different interface over top of what we already have) or restrict it to certain things and only allow for simpler modifications (in which case it doesn't take that long to do it by hand anyway). Either way, you don't get much of a userbase. In the first case, it's too complicated for new modders, and for older modders, they're likely more accustomed to straight-up INI editing anyway. In the second case, it's too shallow for older modders, and while it's potentially useful for newer modders, it'll only be good for producing lackluster mods.
Ultimately, the benefits of something like this aren't going to make up for the time spent developing it.


Ok to clear up why this would be useful, most older modders aren't going to use this, but new ones in the community would. I would like a tool for the same reason that people use CAD, even though its "just putting a different interface" over actually going and drawing on graph paper, or thinking in your head, now you may not be able to do everything, but that doesn't mean that you could quickly use this type of mod to, say make a quick actor and then modify what you want in code, right now it just seems modding is too difficult to get into for some people, and maybe if we had a tool that would change


Yes, a Simplistic Yet Advance Tool that allows for Speedy Creation of Actors is Totaly What is needed.
Author:  Asklar [ Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cortex command Mob editor / creater. Yes or no?
nicolasx wrote:
right now it just seems modding is too difficult to get into for some people, and maybe if we had a tool that would change


Lie. People are very lazy when it comes to modding. Modding isn't difficult at all, you just need a good memory to know what the function of some variable is. In fact, you could just write them and problem solved.

Anyway, what modders have always done, is copy a template from anywhere to create a weapon/actor, unless they really want to do something very specific. I don't know a single modder that codes his/her stuff from scratch.
Author:  LowestFormOfWit [ Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cortex command Mob editor / creater. Yes or no?
I'm sorry, but walkpaths are far too tedious/poorly documented/hard to visualize/hard to tweak for us to NOT release a walkpath editor. Not to mention you have to go through it 3 times for walking/climbing/crawling.

There's already an unofficial offset editor and it's pretty decent, but walkpaths are the spawn of satan. I would kill for a drag and drop walkpath editor so you can trace the points the feet travel over the duration of the walk/climb/crawl.
Author:  Asklar [ Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cortex command Mob editor / creater. Yes or no?
Well, from my point of view, a walkpath editor would be useful, since it's the hardest part of modding an actor, because you can easily copy every other part of the code.

As I said before, you can copy any code to create your own actor, unless you want to do something very specific.
Author:  TheLastBanana [ Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cortex command Mob editor / creater. Yes or no?
Sims_Doc wrote:
nicolasx wrote:
Ok to clear up why this would be useful, most older modders aren't going to use this, but new ones in the community would. I would like a tool for the same reason that people use CAD, even though its "just putting a different interface" over actually going and drawing on graph paper, or thinking in your head, now you may not be able to do everything, but that doesn't mean that you could quickly use this type of mod to, say make a quick actor and then modify what you want in code, right now it just seems modding is too difficult to get into for some people, and maybe if we had a tool that would change


Yes, a Simplistic Yet Advance Tool that allows for Speedy Creation of Actors is Totaly What is needed.

The difference between this and CAD is that, with CAD, you can, for instance, quickly create precise shapes. It actually helps you along to create what you want to create, and is easier than drawing things by hand with tools.
There isn't an opportunity for that with CC. INI modding is very simply entering "Variable = Value" over and over. The only thing a GUI will change is making it a box labelled "Variable" into which you can enter "Value". It's exactly the same thing, but with a different method of entering data. That isn't going to increase modding - there's already plenty of modding going on. The reason there are less mods recently is that there are less people visiting the forums. I don't think it has anything to do with the difficulty of modding, as that's never been a problem before. We've had mods from people who can hardly spell, draw, or program. That should be indication enough that modding the game is pretty simple.

The one way I can see an editor being helpful is if it told you what each variable did so you don't have to remember. Fair enough, that would make life easier. But why make a complicated interface around this, which will take literally months of work to bring to a satisfactory and easy-to-use state, when we could just compile some documentation for what everything does? That accomplishes the same goal without having to make this huge program.

Again, the only useful part of an editor like this would be its offset and walkpath editor. It makes sense to have a visual editor for something which is, in-game, visual-based, and makes a confusing process easier to deal with. In this case, it makes sense to enter data in a different way, because you can actually draw the path and see how it'll look without entering dozens of coordinate values. But if you're just entering "Mass = 25", I really don't see the point of making an entire editor for it, and that's the vast majority of what modding the game is.
Author:  nicolasx [ Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cortex command Mob editor / creater. Yes or no?
I was more suggesting a "lego" type system for actors and guns but I see what your saying,
heres the thing though, modding is tedious, (at least in my opinion) but I guess thats the only thing "hard" about it, maybe an hdfirearm offset editor would be nice too
Author:  Glowsticks [ Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cortex command Mob editor / creater. Yes or no?
Some sort of offset/walkpath editor would be a miraculous tool indeed.
Author:  loirottaja [ Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cortex command Mob editor / creater. Yes or no?
Well a simple .ini creator isn't that hard to make but the problem comes when you start putting more advanced stuff in it.

Yeah I will vote for yes.
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