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Limited Grenades, unlimited ammo?
http://45.55.195.193/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=15424		 Page 1 of 8
Author:  Darlos9D [ Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:49 am ]
Post subject:  Limited Grenades, unlimited ammo?
There's something that's been on my mind as of late, and that thing is the issue of one's grenades being limited, but ammo for firearms being unlimited. I'm rather confused by the system, since I find it strange that one can have limited thrown grenades, yet an unlimited grenade launcher. If the game was clearly balanced so that the grenades were way more effective than firearms, I could maybe see the limitation. But they aren't, really. Actually, firearms are clearly better for the most part. The only advantage I can see grenades having over firearms is maybe they're lighter overall. But it's hardly enough to really change the game, especially if you want to pack enough grenades to be effective.

I guess the only alternatives would be to either have limited firearm ammo (which would change things, perhaps for the worse) or have some way to get grenades back. Or make sure grenades are clearly more useful somehow.

Discuss?
Author:  Alenth Eneil [ Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Limited Grenades, unlimited ammo?
Grenades make you kill things when you die?

Apart from making you explosive or being used as bombs from craft, they aren't generally useful.

...Unlimited dropship bombs sounds silly.
Author:  mail2345 [ Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Limited Grenades, unlimited ammo?
Code:
if not(self.given) then
local curdist = 15;
self.parent = nil;
for actor in MovableMan.Actors do
local avgx = actor.Pos.X - self.Pos.X;
local avgy = actor.Pos.Y - self.Pos.Y;
local dist = math.sqrt(avgx ^ 2 + avgy ^ 2);
if dist < curdist then
 curdist = dist;
self.parent = actor;
end
end
if self.parent ~= nil and not(self.parent:IsInGroup("Craft")) then
self.parent:AddInventoryItem(CreateTDExplosive(self.PresetName))
self.given = true
end
end

This could use some changes, though.
Author:  Ramma [ Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Limited Grenades, unlimited ammo?
How about a grenade, but it has a length "recharge" rather then a reload so you can be shooting rather then holding a grenade out "reloading." This way you don't spam out grenades but you have unlimited.
Author:  Azukki [ Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Limited Grenades, unlimited ammo?
Yeah, it is weird how it's like that. I suppose its to avoid all out grenade spam.
I personally wish it would depend on the grenade; allowing limitation but not limited to it.

A Supply variable for TDEs would be great, accompanied by UseDelay.
Supply of five gives you five when you order one unit of the grenade, Supply of -1 is infinite, etc.
UseDelay is how long after throwing one can you get out another, to balance out infinite supply.

Darlos9D wrote:
or have some way to get grenades back.

I've done this before; I made a grenade that recursively gibbed into itself, and it had a short lived emitter of explosive particles.

One could also make a grenade that adds a copy of itself to the thrower's inventory with a fairly simple Lua script. And someone did as I wrote this post.

Or just make a grenade launcher with the appearance of a grenade, like numgun's snake mod's grenade. But then you loose charged throwing.


Also
ThrowChargeTime = Milliseconds would be great for nades, albeit mostly unrelated to the topic at hand.
Author:  CrazyMLC [ Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Limited Grenades, unlimited ammo?
Grenades could use a Reload = 1/0 variable.
1 means it has a reload, 0 means that it has no reload and it can only be thrown once.

But you could just make a grenade launcher, make the sprite a grenade, give it an invisible clip, 1 ammo, and some kind of reload.

Add it to Bombs instead of Guns.

Why all the lua? -_-;
Author:  mail2345 [ Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Limited Grenades, unlimited ammo?
Or just lua it.

Works better(besides if a person is closer to your arm then you, they steal your nade.
Author:  CrazyMLC [ Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Limited Grenades, unlimited ammo?
Why do you like stealing so much?
You put hijacking into the vehicle code, etc...

I like keeping what I buy.
-_-;
Author:  Azukki [ Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Limited Grenades, unlimited ammo?
mail2345 wrote:
(besides if a person is closer to your arm then you

Cast an MO Ray in the direction opposite to the projectile's velocity to find a parent actor.

I personally can't figure out how to do it, but that would be a superior technique, since it would be more accurate and slightly less laggy. (your method checks all the actors in game, but that's just once, so it hardly matters. However if you're checking for a nearby target in the update, like the cauterizer does, it adds up.)

CrazyMLC wrote:
Why do you like stealing so much?
You put hijacking into the vehicle code, etc...

I like keeping what I buy.
-_-;

Others like taking what you buy.

CrazyMLC wrote:
Why all the lua? -_-;

To get the desired effect; infinite grenades with charged throwing velocities.
Author:  CrazyMLC [ Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Limited Grenades, unlimited ammo?
And then you can't run right up to someone and go KAMIKAZE and throw your grenade at them.
;_;
Author:  mail2345 [ Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Limited Grenades, unlimited ammo?
It's a limitation.

I really can't fix it without doing some hackish stuff.
Author:  Azukki [ Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Limited Grenades, unlimited ammo?
CrazyMLC wrote:
And then you can't run right up to someone and go KAMIKAZE and throw your grenade at them.
;_;

You can still do that.
You'll throw it at minimal velocity though.

And since we're on that subject, and min/max variable throwing velocities was my idea to have integrated into the game,
(asked numgun to mention the idea to Data, next build, bam)
let me throw another grenade throwing velocity idea out there.

Grenade throwing velocity multipliers for AHumans.

And related to that:
Actor based multiplier for HDFirearm accuracy.
Actor GripStrength, a multiplier for the jointstrength of devices.
One could surely knock the same gun out of a Ronin's hands easier than a Robot's.
Author:  Darlos9D [ Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Limited Grenades, unlimited ammo?
I wasn't talking about how modders might do this with Lua. That discussion is for mod making. I'm concerned about the base engine's way of handling it. I was hoping people would talk about possible alternatives methods of handling it.

Alenth Eneil wrote:
Grenades make you kill things when you die?

Because that's what grenades are for, right? I've already complained about how stupidly easy it is to detonate grenades through impact.

Alenth Eneil wrote:
Apart from making you explosive or being used as bombs from craft, they aren't generally useful.

Again, these things kinda go against the intended idea behind "grenade." And shouldn't they become useful?

Alenth Eneil wrote:
...Unlimited dropship bombs sounds silly.

Well, thats not exactly what I was suggesting...

Ramma wrote:
How about a grenade, but it has a length "recharge" rather then a reload so you can be shooting rather then holding a grenade out "reloading." This way you don't spam out grenades but you have unlimited.

Yeah, I was thinking of something like this. Basically once you use a grenade, it just automatically respawns again in your inventory some time later. It doesn't respawn MORE though or anything. So you only have up to as many grenades as you initially started with.

mail2345 wrote:
Or just lua it.

Hey, you know, its not up to me and other modders to add new full-blown features to CC. And even if we did, it'd be limited to certain grenades, rather than affecting all grenades. So that doesn't really cut it.
Author:  CrazyMLC [ Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Limited Grenades, unlimited ammo?
A generator added to your inventory that gives you a grenade every minute?
The generator could be heavy, and the grenades could weigh basically nothing.
Author:  The Decaying Soldat [ Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Limited Grenades, unlimited ammo?
I totally agree with Darlos. The grenades right now doesn't really function like grenades. They're weak, they're limited, they are easily detonated, they get stuck by particles easily.

I agree that grenades should be unlimited, but with a recharge time. Not for dropship bombs though. I won't go with buffing them, that would only cause more hazard to the user himself.

CrazyMLC wrote:
A generator added to your inventory that gives you a grenade every minute?
The generator could be heavy, and the grenades could weigh basically nothing.

I'd ignore a grenade generator. Just it make so when you put a grenade into your inventory, grenade magically regenerate, just like your firearm magazines.
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