A well-meant critique to consider
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Duh102
happy carebear mom
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 1:40 am Posts: 7096 Location: b8bbd5
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Re: A well-meant critique to consider
Just a friendly mod reminder, keep it calm and collected. I like this discussion and would hate to have to remove posts because they got flame-y.
My personal opinion on the matter: A good half of your post was devoted to how much you seem to dislike the way terrain falls apart and turns into piles. For one, use the latest build and a digger, debris comes apart real easy with the addition of IsScrap. For two, I agree that it's a little bit on the easy side to dig right now, concrete, rock, and other hard materials need to be increased in hardness to make buying certain classes of diggers a necessity if you want to dig through bunkers and the like.
Most of the other points have been handled by other people.
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Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:27 pm |
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dragonxp
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:16 am Posts: 3032 Location: Somewhere in the universe
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Re: A well-meant critique to consider
BioBen wrote: Robot with light digger = Janitor Actually, i consider pulse diggers to be far less harmful to the floor.
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Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:21 pm |
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Natti
Data Realms Elite
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:05 am Posts: 3878
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Re: A well-meant critique to consider
I agree with dragonxp.
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Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:25 pm |
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Contrary
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 10:50 pm Posts: 2175 Location: Neverwhere
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Re: On the contrary...
Napalm wrote: @ Contrary: Well I sorta expected hardcore fans who are accustomed to the style of gameplay CC sports right now to: 1) Feel deeply hurt about my lack of tact in criticising it and not wrapping every sentence in friendly, colorful cotton balls . 2) Explain to me how my baboon-sized brain doesn't grasp the intricate awesomeness of the current gameplay. 3) Explain to me how fortress gameplay is so much fun playing it with other players. 4) Defend every single point about the game I criticized. Even the friggin gold digging. 5) Defend the AI, saying mario is fun as well. (And for some reason they always bring up mario to make this argument). So so... After I give my opinion, you claim that you expected exactly everything I said and that invalidates my points? In addition you claim that I am "deeply hurt" by your ramblings and insinuate I insulted your intelligence when I did not? You are hardly using gentlemanly or even valid methods of engagement.1) I know, my critique is not going to win an award for being the pinnacle of carefully crafted diplomatic dialogue. It might not be as self-evident as I thought but I do find CC fun to play already. I wouldn't have bothered coming here and giving my opinion on how to improve it if I though it was trash beyond repair, would I? Admitting fault does not alleviate it.2) Yes you are right, I surely didn't spend a hundred hours playing it but neither will the average player if it's not "pick up and go". Then you exaggerate my words with "hundreds of hours" when it was clear I said "more than five minutes".I look into my crystal ball and I tell you that the current fortress based skirmish and digging for pixels is never going to be popular with the crowd. At best it will continue to please hardcore fans but the current gameplay style will simply alienate most players. Which is a goddamn shame because you could get so much more potential fun out of the particle/physics engine. Of course your moderately clever statement is clear support for your opinion. That is some good FACT right there.Yes the gameplay I tried to outline is radically different from what you are used to right now. That is the whole point to begin with. Because what you are used to is not appealing to a broad array of players and it will never be. CC has sold quite well. It is a fairly large following. It is enjoyed.3) Yes, and waiting for the paint to dry can be fun with the right friends as well. I recommend it. Again a gross and exaggeration and an nonequivalent metaphor. You can't defend yourself by saying "Oh I'm not trolling, I luuurv CC I just want to help you" while simultaneously saying "It's like watching paint try".4) Dude, seriously? [Gold] Please read my post before you form decisions. Gold digging takes about 10 seconds at the start of the match and the AI will perform adequately.5) Well this ain't mario. Sure AI can be as dumb as a brick without spoiling a game, the point is that the AI must be adequate to the kind of gameplay the game features. And I'm not so sure if that that's the case here yet. That is no longer a definite statement. It is now innuendo which means nothing.Is that how you experience it in PvP? But still you can't reach the digger underground until he breaches your wall. (Or am I missing something?) Except shooting through the wall yourself, you don't seem to have any real options. And if fog of war is coming with the next build then you can't even see diggers approaching until it's too late. Also once the wall is breached you can't repair it, the concrete gun is a joke. No what you do is you go through their digger hole, like where it goes from the surface to the shaft. If it starts at their bunker, well, who's to say you can't also use the tunnel? Tunnel fighting is pretty rad. Fog of War doesn't change the key fact of tunnel digging. It is slow as hell. Games are sometimes finished in like, 5 minutes would a strong rush. Besides, screen peeking, lol.Heavens no, you are right! Somewhere in between dropping crabs from the sky and shooting zombies in the face, players will definitely smack their gob and think to themselves: "Boy this game sure is realistic, but I just wish the debriS would stay forever and clog everything all the time. Disintegrating debriS is so friggin' unrealistic, I think I'll stop playing now." Oh my what clever sarcasm. If you had played the game AT ALL, you would realize what the people had posted after you. Iscrap makes terrain easy to melt through. Single bullets will dig metre wide tunnels with infinite length through scrap.That said, it's not like CC doesn't have room for improvement. It's just natural people will reject your ideas when you're being an ass. I was the same as you on the IB forums.
Last edited by Contrary on Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:09 pm |
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dragonxp
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:16 am Posts: 3032 Location: Somewhere in the universe
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Re: A well-meant critique to consider
Napalm, First of all, THE WHOLE POINT OF THE 'friggin' game is to DIG FOR GOLD. Second of All, Digging tunnels takes a long time, you probably would die before you got to the brain. Third of All, If you don't think that this is what the cc engine can do, why don't you go and edit it to your own liking into your own game.
Finally, if you don't like this game, simply DON'T play it, and gtfo of the forums.
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Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:14 pm |
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Napalm
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 11:18 pm Posts: 7
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Re: A well-meant critique to consider
Quote: Dude...I just have to point out, the game is about digging for gold. So what you are saying, that Super Mario is actually about saving the princess rather than say... platforming gameplay fun? I think Marios princess could as well be a dude and the gold in CC could as well be funds earned by territory control and no sane person would care. I get the impression that if CC happened to have the territory control funding system from the get go and someone tried to sell you on the idea that from now on players need to start digging up scattered yellow pixels from the dirt... you'd not even take him seriously. What I'm trying to say is this: are you sure you aren't just defending the gold digging stuff because you already got used to it? I feel that if people want to dig up wealth they can play Dig Dug. Digging up gold is only semi-"fun" because it adds another tactical dimension to CC. That's the only good reason why it is there in the first place. But replacing the gold by steady funds from control points would replace the tactical importance of gold through another tactical dimension that involves engaging combat. Which is the reason why you have fun playing this game in the frst place. People won't stand in line for digging stuff up, what they want from CC is to blow ♥♥♥♥ up and scatter it all across the landscape while bashing their opponent. Quote: Actually, you could whip up a singplayer gamemode exactly like that right now with only a small amount of coding. Exactly. Most of the gameplay changes suggested don't even require any restructuring of the game or the engine. Why not just try it out and see how fun it is to play? You could even add an early version of it as a separate gameplay mode along with the fortress style gameplay in your next build to test how well it potentially plays if done properly. Quote: I really think you're placing far too much weight behind your own opinion. Apart from the things you suggested that Data is ALREADY PLANNING TO DO, we're all pretty happy with the game as it is now. The fact that one other guy doesn't like it doesn't call for a massive engine upheaval. Well you are spot on, quite possible that I am placing too much weight behind my opinion. And maybe you place way too much weight on the opinion of this forum as well. Think about it, radical fanboys crawling a forum that deals with an early build of a game are just one thin slice in a possibly really big piechart of potential players. So naturally what you consider to be the best possible gameplay might diverge a good deal from the kind of gameplay that the majority of people would actually like and get addicted to. People who are... well simply "casual" players rather than nerds. I consider myself to be of the more casual sort and I'm simply saying that the fortress gameplay is not as fun and rewarding for me as other possible gameplay modes that I can imagine. You guys seem to be the hardcore gaming crowd that can stand learning every tactical finesse of this game for a month without getting bored, but that's not the casual player who just wants to spend a fun time. A game only has a chance of becoming really popular if it can be learned within 10-15 minutes by casual players of whom a fraction (that is you guys) can spend a lifetime mastering it. The goal should be so hit that sweet spot in between the extremes rather than just trying to please the hardcore gamers who seem to generally add more complexity than is needed for maximum fun while playing the game. Essentially spoiling it for the casual gamer. Right now CC is how Starcraft would look like if all the fanboys from Korea had a say in its development. In my perversely overweighted opinion that is.
Last edited by Napalm on Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:18 pm |
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Duh102
happy carebear mom
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 1:40 am Posts: 7096 Location: b8bbd5
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Re: A well-meant critique to consider
Napalm wrote: casual player who just wants to spend a fun time. If you're looking for a smashfest, play skirmish and don't dig in. Presto, new game As for the difficulty in learning, it's not all that difficult really... Mouse aims, q/e selects, WASD moves, left click fires, right click opens menu.
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Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:22 pm |
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Natti
Data Realms Elite
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:05 am Posts: 3878
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Re: A well-meant critique to consider
What if we could combine 'teh territuri controlz' and 'teh guld digginz' and make it so that when you capture an outpost, it would spawn 2 AI diggerclones that would automatically start digging gold for you?
Isn't that a great idea? Isn't it?
I hate the word 'isn't'.
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Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:23 pm |
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dragonxp
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:16 am Posts: 3032 Location: Somewhere in the universe
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Re: A well-meant critique to consider
Napalm wrote: Quote: Dude...I just have to point out, the game is about digging for gold. I get the impression that if CC happened to have the territory control funding system from the get go and someone tried to sell you on the idea that from now on players need to start digging up scattered yellow pixels from the dirt... you'd not even take him seriously. What I'm trying to say is this: are you sure you aren't just defending the gold digging stuff because you already got used to it? Data purposely used gold digging. Changing the way to get credits into WAYPOINTs will not only have to change gameplay and engine. YOU WILL ALSO HAVE TO CHANGE THE GODAMN STORY. datarealms.com wrote: You play as the boss of a small gold mining company that has just arrived at a newly discovered Earth-like planet.
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Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:28 pm |
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TorrentHKU
Loose Canon
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 11:07 pm Posts: 2992 Location: --------------->
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Re: A well-meant critique to consider
Napalm wrote: I get the impression that if CC happened to have the territory control funding system from the get go and someone tried to sell you on the idea that from now on players need to start digging up scattered yellow pixels from the dirt... you'd not even take him seriously. What I'm trying to say is this: are you sure you aren't just defending the gold digging stuff because you already got used to it? Do you know what I saw when I saw CC? I saw a rocket flying into a coalition drone, and both exploding into a physics heavy gibsplosion. I saw a dummy climb a ladder (VIA PHYSICS), shoot a skeleton in the back of the head (MORE PHYSICS), and the skeleton's exploded skull flew everywhere dynamically (PHYSICS AGAIN). You aren't going to be selling CC with the idea of digging up gold. You are going to be selling it by the funnest parts, in this case; KILLING THINGS INTO PHYSICS BASED PIECES, BY USING PHYSICS. And there is most certainly a tremendous amount of people who would jump at the chance for a good, splody, moddable, physics based shooter.
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Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:48 pm |
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PhantomAGN
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:40 am Posts: 610 Location: Deep below The Map of Mars
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Re: A well-meant critique to consider
I feel that this discussion ought to be had after Data fixes a few things accepted as "broken." Firstly, scrapping, as that by itself changes the gameplay of base-defence enormously. Secondly, AI as if the computer less of an absolute imbecile (and difficulty could be scaled) then the gameplay is again impacted greatly.
Having played older versions of the game (though less, obviously, than older members here) I can say with some semblance certainty that the game is becoming more like what I imagine Data thinks it should be. Not sure what he was thinking with the scrapping thing though.
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Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:30 pm |
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Freeflow
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:16 pm Posts: 110 Location: Western U.S.
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Re: A well-meant critique to consider
Quote: So naturally what you consider to be the best possible gameplay might diverge a good deal from the kind of gameplay that the majority of people would actually like and get addicted to. Then it wouldn't be an indie game Cortex Command? Quote: And maybe you place way too much weight on the opinion of this forum as well. I think if many forumites were displeased with the direction of Cortex Command they would be up in arms and or finding ways to alter the game to their satisfaction. playing a different game. Mr. Napalm: With time CC will improve. Blasting onto the forums with few Skirmish/Campaign hours logged and telling us to take our game and make it look like every other game isn't going to help anything. If your not picking up what I'm putting down then I'd say "If you can't beat em, leave em."
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Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:35 pm |
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BioBen
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:17 am Posts: 81 Location: New Zealand
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Re: A well-meant critique to consider
I play this game because it is like nothing I have ever played before, the physics causes unexpected and untimely deaths anyone with splosions of blood/gibs/bits and it is fun. I would quite possibly not play this at all if it was just like all those other "good" games.
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Sat Feb 27, 2010 12:09 am |
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Grif
REAL AMERICAN HERO
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 10:25 pm Posts: 5655
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Re: A well-meant critique to consider
I am loving the fact that my post was one of the least hostile in this thread.
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Sat Feb 27, 2010 1:04 am |
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Duh102
happy carebear mom
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 1:40 am Posts: 7096 Location: b8bbd5
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Re: A well-meant critique to consider
Grif wrote: my post was one of the least hostile in this thread. So am I. The rest of you, please do the same.
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Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:35 am |
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