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 Build 18 discussion topic. 
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Post Re: Build 18 discussion topic.
Merged Ceasefire discussion into general build discussion.


Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:39 am
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Post Re: Build 18 discussion topic.
(Didn't Data say ceasefires would bring back the map-editor?)

Jengu wrote:
7. When moving between bodies, it would be nice if you didn't stop the AI from running until you performed an action. Switching to a bot that was in the middle of a firefight can get you killed, and it's annoying that to keep my digger working when my other units are dead I always have to switch away to my brain. This would also soften my #6 complaint.
Agreed. It'll also help with rockets, as when you switch to one that's in mid-air it'll crash and burn if your not quick enough.

I just have one suggestion for the pie-selection: group the AI commands under one button, so that when you click on it you cycle thorough the different types. Also give each command a different color to make finding the right command easier (ie. Red = Brain-hunt, Green = Sentry, Blue = Patrol, Yellow = Gold-dig).


Mon Sep 03, 2007 2:33 am
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Post Re: Build 18 discussion topic.
The pie menu is interesting, but I've had some issues with the whole "hold a button and hit a direction" routine even before this. I've been wondering for a while now why some of these functions aren't just assigned to individual keystrokes. I mean, I would be perfectly comfortable to have weapon switching, reloading, picking up, and dropping all assigned to buttons. I - and many others - am already used to all that from FPS games, and also switching actors already works this way, so I don't see the problem with it.

Now, this isn't to say I think the menus should be done away with. I just feel there should be an option. You can just use the pie menu, which is always available, but you can also assign keystrokes or mouse button presses. One of these functions, of course, would be "open pie menu" which could just as easily be unassigned.

Now, I suppose this could get more complicated when issuing commands. I'm not sure how many commands there will be in the future, or how complicated they will get. Perhaps a menu, or some kind of graphical selection method, is indeed in order here as it might be in most RTS games. But also like an RTS game there should perhaps be key binds for different actions. So I select an actor and press "G" to get him to dig gold. There could even be a combination of menus and keystrokes, also like RTS games. So if theres multiple menus to cycle through, each one has its own set of key binds thats exclusive of the others (so two menus could both use "G" for something).

While on the RTS train of thought, it would be good if this game allowed some greater degree of macro-management. I feel you should be able to select multiple units and issue them all a single command. Basically, the game needs to be set up more to where you can really get the feeling that you're commanding a number of units, and that you just so happen to be able to take direct control of one.

Perhaps this would call for some kind of free-look mode you can enter where you just move about the map with a cursor that can select things. You don't necessarily always have to have focus on a unit or the brain. I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but I'm just saying.

These are all just thoughts, of course. I believe I looked over most of this thread, but forgive me if I've repeated something.

Edit: Oh, another thought: a "go here" command would be good, where you just click on a place on the map and then the unit gos there... or tries, anyway.


Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:25 pm
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Post Re: Build 18 discussion topic.
oh dear, tl;dr after first paragraph.

But the first paragraph brings up a good point. The pie-style menu is an attempt to--represent a more retro-like atmosphere and gameplay.

102-key keyboards didn't exist, back in the day.


Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:33 am
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Post Re: Build 18 discussion topic.
Huh, weird...
This is a messed up error.
I've had my control scheme set to key/mouse for a while now, and I recently replugged in my controller.
CC started fine, I went into controls, set gamepad 1 controls to analog, no problem- but then had the game crash as soon as I pressed the back button. Upon a restart of the game, I chose to reset the settings to default, and then tried again. Same problem. So I decided to set the back button's function to Y, and the game worked fine.
Very odd.
BTW- I use an x360 wired controller with updated drivers, and am using Vista, so this is a problem with b18.


Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:43 am
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Post Re: Build 18 discussion topic.
Darlos9D wrote:
The pie menu is interesting, but I've had some issues with the whole "hold a button and hit a direction" routine even before this. I've been wondering for a while now why some of these functions aren't just assigned to individual keystrokes. I mean, I would be perfectly comfortable to have weapon switching, reloading, picking up, and dropping all assigned to buttons. I - and many others - am already used to all that from FPS games, and also switching actors already works this way, so I don't see the problem with it.

More keystrokes INSTEAD of a direction, means you CAN'T PLAY WITH A CONTROLLER.
using keystrokes only, benifits ONLY people who only use the keyboard, and screws over everyone else
Darlos9D wrote:
Now, this isn't to say I think the menus should be done away with. I just feel there should be an option. You can just use the pie menu, which is always available, but you can also assign keystrokes or mouse button presses. One of these functions, of course, would be "open pie menu" which could just as easily be unassigned.

the only thing there isnt a keystroke for, is switching the AI before you change units.
keystroke : a keypress consisting of multiple keys,
last i checked, D + Right arrow, is a keystroke.
after all, arrows are still keys.
trust me, i was using a 360 controller as a gamepad, untill the pie-menues, it treated it as arrow keys, and i couldnt do diagonals, THEN i switched to analog, which was harder to get used to, and less acurate
Darlos9D wrote:
Now, I suppose this could get more complicated when issuing commands.

GEE! YAH THINK?!
Darlos9D wrote:
I'm not sure how many commands there will be in the future, or how complicated they will get. Perhaps a menu, or some kind of graphical selection method, is indeed in order here as it might be in most RTS games. But also like an RTS game there should perhaps be key binds for different actions. So I select an actor and press "G" to get him to dig gold. There could even be a combination of menus and keystrokes, also like RTS games. So if theres multiple menus to cycle through, each one has its own set of key binds thats exclusive of the others (so two menus could both use "G" for something).

this game was designed for multiple people on the same machine to play.
if you add enough keystrokes to do everything currently in game, on 1 keyboard.
it will be imposible to have multiple people play on the keyboard.
currently, if you do it right, 2 people on keyboard, and 1 with keyboard and mouse, will work.
what you propose ruins that.
Darlos9D wrote:

While on the RTS train of thought, it would be good if this game allowed some greater degree of macro-management. I feel you should be able to select multiple units and issue them all a single command. Basically, the game needs to be set up more to where you can really get the feeling that you're commanding a number of units, and that you just so happen to be able to take direct control of one.
this i agree with.
i had a map with 39 units on my team. and had to cycle through ALL of them to get to a specific one.
it should be switch unit, then you can press a direction, and pick the next one in THAT direction (Aim, locks on closest in that general direction, about 20 degrees)
this way, if you had TOWERS like i used, with multiples in each, and wanted to select the oposite tower,
this would be faster, than going through the first tower, and everything in between. also, group orders,
yeah, select everything in this range (drag a box over them all)
issue an order.
Darlos9D wrote:

Perhaps this would call for some kind of free-look mode you can enter where you just move about the map with a cursor that can select things. You don't necessarily always have to have focus on a unit or the brain. I'm sure this has been mentioned before, but I'm just saying.
that'd be the minimap your talking about, which there's already a non-functioning button for. thats apparently already under-way
Darlos9D wrote:
These are all just thoughts, of course. I believe I looked over most of this thread, but forgive me if I've repeated something.

Edit: Oh, another thought: a "go here" command would be good, where you just click on a place on the map and then the unit gos there... or tries, anyway.
[/quote]
gee, you mean like the rocket/dropship commands?
i think attack/sentry/brain hunt/mine/return/stay here/scuttle should be on EVERY unit, be it dropship or clone.
(issue a stay here command, would be "scout/brainhunt" to a location, then once there, stop, and be sentry.
additionaly, "return" would be like brainhunt, but as patroll, going from where the command was issued, to the destination, then BACK, untill a new command is issued.)


Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:32 pm
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Post Re: Build 18 discussion topic.
See, Miles gets it, buddy.

This game is not meant to be like other games. Its not supposed to be doing things like every other mindless shooter on the market.

If you want to play something thats like everything else, go pick up a copy of Doom or something else.


Fri Sep 14, 2007 11:47 pm
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Post Re: Build 18 discussion topic.
Alright, I'll indeed concede that there's nothing wrong with holding a button and hitting another. I realized my issue comes more from the fact that you now have to hold a button, hit a button, and release the initial button before you get an effect... but whatever, I said all that in the pie menu thread.

I think my overall problem just comes from the fact that you're using the medium of a computer in a manner completely different than what I would do. Now, when I say I wouldn't do that doesn't mean I think what's being done here is wrong. I'm just speaking as a game designer. From the way I look at it, a computer game should be designed pretty much for 1 person per computer. There's this whole multiple players on one computer thing going on here, which I forgot about until you so kindly reminded me. So, I can see the point of all this now. But here's a question: is online multiplayer planned at any point in the future? And if so, would it just be LAN or would it also be WAN?

As for the minimap, I guess I didn't think that you could actually select your cursor/view position through it. If so, that'd be pretty cool.

Finally, with the "go here" command, I was referring to commanding actors already on the map that would have to walk/jetpack to another point, not things that will spawn over the selected point like dropships.

So, yeah, I'll consider my points stated and be done with this now.


Sat Sep 15, 2007 6:35 am
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Post Re: Build 18 discussion topic.
If you'd do some further reading, you'll see that the game is actually developed for use with controllers. It just so happens that its on a PC platform.

That does not mean that it has to adhere to using a keyboard and mouse like everyone else.


Sat Sep 15, 2007 6:37 am
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Post Re: Build 18 discussion topic.
there's a difference between innovative and annoying

using a realistic, particle-based physics engine is innovative

creating a user interface that isn't optimized for the most common input device is annoying

Don't get me wrong, being able to use a game controller is a pretty cool feature that not many other PC developers have really bothered with. And, it's not like the keyboard interface is unusable or anything. But, everybody who owns a computer owns a keyboard, whereas not everyone owns game controllers that are compatible with their PC. I could see having the interface optimized for game controllers if this was a game meant for a console that just happened to have PC based test builds, but Cortex Command looks like it's staying on the PC.
After playing the game, you get used to it, but, it may discourage new players. Both should be options, but neither should really be given priority over the other, i think.
As for keystrokes..... If there were two separate pie menus instead of just one, like the old interface was (sort of), you would only need to add one key to the list.

sorry if i sound too critical. i really do like this game


Sat Sep 15, 2007 8:45 am
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Again, if you'd actually do some reading, you'll see that Data has discussed XBLA ports and whatnot.


lern2reed.

Besides, the pie menu is not even that difficult. If you don't have the hand-to-eye coordination to work a simple compass rose, you fail at life.


Sat Sep 15, 2007 1:51 pm
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Post Re: Build 18 discussion topic.
What the hell guys?

I look through this thread and it was all nice discussion until I came along. Then I got jumped on like some kind of villain. Why? This isn't the first message board this has happened in. What is it, huh? Is it the way I write? Do I sound offensive or something? Or, are my questions or comments really THAT stupid? I'd like to think I put thought into my posts. Tell me, I'd REALLY like to know why this keeps happening to me. I post my opinion in opinion threads and immediately get yelled at like I'm a freakin' moron. I concede points and agree with people and they still yell at me.

So, hell with this. I'm sticking to the modding forums, when I come back later and actually mod.


Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:54 pm
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Post Re: Build 18 discussion topic.
You argue for the sake of argument. Thats your problem. Expedite your departure, please.


Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:59 pm
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Post Re: Build 18 discussion topic.
finairfin wrote:
there's a difference between innovative and annoying

using a realistic, particle-based physics engine is innovative

creating a user interface that isn't optimized for the most common input device is annoying

Don't get me wrong, being able to use a game controller is a pretty cool feature that not many other PC developers have really bothered with. And, it's not like the keyboard interface is unusable or anything. But, everybody who owns a computer owns a keyboard, whereas not everyone owns game controllers that are compatible with their PC.


How many people, who own a PC, also own an X-Box 360?
answer : around +85%
How many people, who own an X-Box 360, use Wired, not wireless controllers
Answer : the % of people on average who prefer NOT to be wastefull and burn through 12 AA batteries a week.

CC's controlls work best with an X-box 360 controller,
that said, a wired controller is what $40?
and that it can be used in a multitude of other games, its worth it, even without a 360,
which, is only 15% likely you wont have a 360. (as 85% of all PC gamers also have one)

if you are a 360 gamer, without a wireless controller, thanks to alot of complaints at microsoft,
gamers can now use wireless 360 controllers on there PC with either a wireless connection, re-dedicated to the controller, or, through a dongle.

so 85% of PC gamers (100% of CC, presumably, so 85% of CC has a 360)
can use either a 360 wired, OR wireless controller at this point.

the remaining 15, can shell out the ~$40 for a good controller, that can be used for a bazillion other games
and if its not NORMALLY compatable, you can use something like joy-to-key-emu (a program that turns a controller input into keyboard strokes, and mouse movements, i've used it to play STARCRAFT and even go through web-browsers.)

so honestly i dont see a problem with this set-up.
while yes,
most people play CC because its free,
which means, they wont pay $40~ to play a free game,
that being said,
1-3 people, can still play successfuly, on 1 machine, with just a keyboard and mouse.
therefor input isnt a problem.

and as for "1 player per machine" doesnt work, for one reason.
thats like saying "1 player per machine on a 360/ps3/wii"
it just doesnt work,
they tried it in such games as quake 4.
which was multiplayer, over x-box live, or through wireless/wired lan games.
you should never need 4 x-box 360's, 4 controllers, 4 copys of the game, and 4 TV's to play a multi-player 360 game in 1 house.
the same should be able to be said for free-ware PC games.

while yes, the ability to is a necesity,
the REQUIREMENT to, is the contradictory to that.

again, as i said either this thread, or in another,
sorry for the long-winded posts. most people apparently hate that.


Sun Sep 16, 2007 4:19 pm
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Post Re: Build 18 discussion topic.
Well, you have a good point, Miles, but your math is majorly flawed.

85% seems to be a statistic, you, ah, pulled out of your ass, and it has no corellation to actual market figures.

The 360 is only popular in America; not really other countries. This forum has regular members from all over the world.

I personally don't have one, nor would I pay money to buy a controller when I am perfectly happy playing with the current keyboard controls. Take note of the "current" bit there. I don't want Darlos9D's controls, those always get too insanely difficult, and, anyways, the current 10 key setup works just fine.

So, math was borked, point was good.


Sun Sep 16, 2007 5:33 pm
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